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Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

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Jan Loosman

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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostSat Aug 01, 2020 2:59 am

Hello Thomas
I see your point. But I want to hear the organ acoustics above my organ console and I think there will be enough height left above the recording position to give a added vertical impression off the space.
Now you mention it, isn’t it strange that the Hauptwerk organs we all experience, including the acoustics are all recorded at a position in the church we will never ever sit, some meters above the ground. But I do understand that this will give the best recordings.

Regards Jan
Last edited by Jan Loosman on Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostSat Aug 01, 2020 3:15 am

münsterorganist wrote:Dear HW User,
it would be more important to me not to keep inflanting the recordings, the sets then become too expensive, but to invest more in an authentic reproduction. If I can no longer hear the difference between a CD recording of the organ and the sample, I would be happier than working with any perspectives in a living room. A excellent wet sample is enough for this.You can still use the excellent perspective mixer to distribute the works( HW,RP,BW..) on the room. That would be my approch.


I can see your point and I agree that sampleset producers should always offer different versions of the sets to suit everyone’s needs. They already do that with dry, stereo and multichannel, they also add multiple perspectives with already three front channels (not my cup off thea) So they already make multiple recordings and this way push us to expand and improve our hardware already. Why not add a version with vertical channels for those who seek the optimum configuration.

Regards Jan
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Atn52

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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostSat Aug 01, 2020 12:55 pm

I have to disagree with the above statement. SACD contain the treble components over 2 stereo channels. The playback must be played through a Blueray player and is fantastic.
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tf11972

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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostSat Aug 01, 2020 5:28 pm

Best regards
Thomas

Forestpipes - Virtual Pipe Organs
http://www.forestpipes.de
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1961TC4ME

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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostMon Aug 03, 2020 11:15 am

One thing I didn't mention earlier is I've either posted or have been parts of past posts here concerning the idea of vertical stacking of your front speakers. Rank routing is another biggie. These two alone can make quite a difference and add the vertical height to the sound. As mentioned here by a few others, there comes a point when adding even more channels perhaps pays off less and less, but as mentioned only adds to the sample set production time, overall complexity, and inevitably the requirement of even more powerful computers which in the long run means additional costs. If I were a sample set producer I wouldn't do all these extras that requires added time for free either. Being we have several channels / perspectives already available with many of the new sets and it seems more coming with every new sample set release, this along with a plethora of routing options and now even convolution reverb, a well laid out, routed and placed speaker system might be all you need.

I look at it this way: We're either asking the sample set producers to do all the additional work for us and determine what is best, or we do some of it ourselves. Concerning the various recording perspectives and the resulting acoustics they come up, to me it would then mean in order for things to sound best we are then subject to certain requirements for the number of channels we'd need which would likely require that we also follow a strict speaker layout provided by them. This may work great for their sample sets, but maybe not so great for others not following the same process. Honestly, I'm already seeing / hearing some of this between sets. I more like the idea that I have a sample set that offers a quality recording process of 2 to 6 perspectives, and I do my homework from there using careful speaker placement and the many tools Hauptwerk offers. Bottom line, none of us are ever going to re-create a perfect sound experience that sounds exactly like it does in the church, and from one setup to the next it's going to sound different because we're all using different equipment, are in different rooms, etc., etc. It's all about how it sounds to you. :)

Marc

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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostWed Aug 05, 2020 11:42 pm

josq wrote:
You are right to mention the vertical dimension of the reverb: sound reflecting from the high walls/roof. Good to hear that you are able to achieve satisfying results using multiple speakers and convolution reverb. I guess the reverb/delay needs to be optimized per organ?


Ideally, yes, reverb/delay does need to be optimized for each organ, which can get complicated. Here HW5 would certainly offer an advantage insofar as all the reverb and delay settings for each mixer bus can be customized and saved for each organ--which Martin kindly clarified earlier in this thread. However, I have achieved spectacular results with HW4 and outboard reverb modules (my favorites made by TC Electronics).

I really don't think that any sample set needs more than 6 channels. In fact, even very minimalist organs in absolutely dead spaces like the MDA Buzard chamber organ (2 channels, 16 bit samples, NO natural reverb) can be brought beautifully to life. Extra "channels" can be gleaned from any sample set by routing the signals through a preamp or mixer that has multiple outputs. Some of these outputs can carry the direct dry pipe sound to an amp and speakers, and some of them can go to an outboard reverb and then to another amp and speakers.

I have found it absolutely key to separate the dry sound from the reverberations through separate speaker banks. The principle behind this is no different from that behind surround channels. You don't want the reflected sounds from the rear of the church coming through the front speakers along with the sounds recorded close to the pipes. In essence, reverberation can be introduced to create a synthesized surround with great depth. Again, its use has to be tailored to the acoustics already present in the sample set. With a set like Salisbury, the introduction of additional reverb would be overkill, to say the least. But with a rather dry set like the Portland Rosales, additional reverb can create a wholly different organ.

It helps to have speakers both on the floor and mounted up on the walls, and also to have them in different rooms if possible. The use of multiple speaker selector switches then allows sound channels to be routed here or there at will, and L-pads set the levels. Having all of this external to the organ console and not tying up the screen or computer allows me to custom tailor the organ while the player of the day goes about his business of rehearsing pieces and choosing registrations. Of course, the switch and L-pad settings do have to be carefully written down, but usually just once for each individual instrument.

If it's a vertical dimension you're after, mount speakers in the top of your stairwell and direct them away from listeners. With reverb sent to a different location, you can even create quite the realistic impression of a carillon or tower bells ringing over top the house!
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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostTue Aug 11, 2020 10:21 am

I'm on the Emotiva email list and received this today. Note that they specifically mention height. Worth a look?

https://emotiva.com/products/airmotiv-v ... VlZSIn0%3D

Marc
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Jan Loosman

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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostSat Aug 15, 2020 12:07 pm

https://www.inspiredacoustics.com/index ... ic-control

Reading this from inspired acoustics there is a mentioning off height channels.
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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostTue Aug 18, 2020 7:42 am

Jan Loosman wrote:Hello Thomas
I see your point. But I want to hear the organ acoustics above my organ console and I think there will be enough height left above the recording position to give a added vertical impression off the space.
Now you mention it, isn’t it strange that the Hauptwerk organs we all experience, including the acoustics are all recorded at a position in the church we will never ever sit, some meters above the ground. But I do understand that this will give the best recordings.

Regards Jan


I've often wondered why "console" was not a position offered by producers. I realize that this is not an "ideal" sound, however it is the most realistic as far as encountering an instrument is concerned. I like semi-dry sets and would love samples that had a console perspective with just a little room added in to balance a bit. I've seen that there are computer-controlled midi-actuators for recording organs (a large english cathedral organ was recorded automatically this way in the middle of the night via this solenoid machine) so it would be possible to record at that position but with only very quiet noise from the magnets.
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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostTue Feb 09, 2021 10:02 am

Most new 8 channel sample sets now use direct, diffuse, distant and rear recordings.

I was wondering if the distant recording perspective could be used solely as a vertical channel by placing additional speakers for this channel straight above your head at the left and right side.??.
Would it be necesarry to manipulate this channel bij adding IR or ad a initial delay?
Could this give the desired vertical extension of the space this way?
I am thinking of setting up such a configuration.

Jan
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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostWed Feb 10, 2021 10:10 am

Jan Loosman wrote:Most new 8 channel sample sets now use direct, diffuse, distant and rear recordings.

I was wondering if the distant recording perspective could be used solely as a vertical channel by placing additional speakers for this channel straight above your head at the left and right side.??.
Would it be necesarry to manipulate this channel bij adding IR or ad a initial delay?
Could this give the desired vertical extension of the space this way?
I am thinking of setting up such a configuration.

Jan


There's certainly nothing stopping you from routing ranks this way. Really, rank perspectives are a suggestion in the grand scheme of things. As users we can put whatever perspectives we want through any physical speakers we want wherever we want them in the room. I'm sure there are oodles of users who have "rear" ranks coming out of additional speakers in the front of the room, for instance, because they don't have the space to place speakers at the other side of the room. Same situation here: just route the distant ranks to some speakers placed higher than the others.
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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostWed Feb 10, 2021 5:35 pm

Jan Loosman wrote:
I was wondering if the distant recording perspective could be used solely as a vertical channel by placing additional speakers for this channel straight above your head at the left and right side.??.
Would it be necesarry to manipulate this channel bij adding IR or ad a initial delay?
Could this give the desired vertical extension of the space this way?
I am thinking of setting up such a configuration.

Jan


Ask and you shall receive. :)

I have done exactly as you are pondering. In addition to 6 channels R/L in front of me, and rear surround speakers in back of me, I first tried placing 2 additional speakers mounted to the ceiling directly above me, I had them spaced about 4' from each other. I then experimented with sending these 2 new overhead speakers both a direct mix of the front channels, a mix of all including surround, and then just surround. Overall no matter what I tried I didn't care for the outcome regardless of what I tried and things didn't pan out as I figured they would. So, back to the drawing board. I then (and still have) placed the 2 additional speakers mounted high up on the walls off to my right and left and again experimented with the above mixes. I also experimented with pointing them at me and pointing them straight out. The best results for me came from pointing them straight out and sending this pair off to each side of me the surround a.k.a. 'distant' signal only, so the get the same signal as the back surround speakers. With careful volume balancing up against everything else with this pair it does add quite a bit of vertical sound and opens the stereo field up wider as well. Is it perfect? No, but overall it does add to the sound and I've kept it in place if that tells you anything. Is there a better way to skin a cat? Maybe, I continue to experiment.

Marc
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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostThu Feb 11, 2021 5:03 am

Hello Marc

You said
best results for me came from pointing them straight out and sending this pair off to each side of me the surround a.k.a. 'distant' signal only, so the get the same signal as the back surround speakers.

There is my point, these distant recorded channels in newer sample sets are not also known as the rear/surround channels as you state in your reaction.
These channels are recorded between front dry/diffuse and rear(surround). And i think may be the best suited channels to use in a setup with vertical extension.

Jan
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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostThu Feb 11, 2021 1:01 pm

Jan Loosman wrote:

There is my point, these distant recorded channels in newer sample sets are not also known as the rear/surround channels as you state in your reaction.
These channels are recorded between front dry/diffuse and rear(surround). And i think may be the best suited channels to use in a setup with vertical extension.

Jan


Hello Jan,

I follow you and have no doubt what you're saying would be of benefit. Based on my experimenting, having a signal be it diffuse or in the event it's not available with the set in question that using the rear surround signal to a side pair of speakers is also of benefit. I currently do not have any sets that have the diffuse signal so my next best option is to use the surround signal off to each side speaker pair as most of my sets are 4 channel surround sets.

It definitely works and adds to the realism. Speaker placement and height of the speakers also adds much to the realism. As I've written here in the past, every one of my speakers start out at a height of around 3' off the floor and go up from there, I'd go a bit higher if I could but I'm limited in ceiling height and use towers up front, however this method alone adds greatly to the vertical impression we're after.

Marc
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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostSun Feb 14, 2021 8:07 am

Yesterday i added two height / side channels to my configuration. These channels are situated at the left and right side off the organ bench in the corner off the ceilling.
I own two 8 channel sets from Sonus Paradisi, Billerbeck and Noordbroek and from these sets i routed only the distant channels which are recorded in the middle of the church to these speakers.
The result is surprising. Altough using only front and rear speakers can provide a rather spacious sound, adding a aditional verical/transversal dimension improves the sound further. You will sens the church expanding left and right and above you.
Also adding these channels seperatily not mixing them as intended with the front channel improves the fidelity off these front channels. Like adding rear channel to front channel which enhances the front channels but now with a even further increased realisme.
I realise these ar not genuine height recorded channels as intended in this topic but they do ad more sens off height.
The synergie in sound when reproducing these channels with seperate speakers rear front and sides is for me now the way to go for my Hauptwerk set in the future.

Regards Jan

Little typo here.
Writing diffuse channels in last post but meaning distant channels (corrected)
Last edited by Jan Loosman on Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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