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bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

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mdyde

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostWed Feb 10, 2021 8:11 am

Thanks, Andy.

All of Hauptwerk's models are configured by settings within the relevant organ definition file. For example:

- Whether and how the wind supply model affects each pipe (magnitudes or pitch, harmonic content, and amplitude modulations in response to air flow, topology of the wind system, flow pressures, flow rates, damping, and other behaviours throughout the various parts of the wind supply).
- The magnitudes, probabilities and probability distributions of tuning randomisations.
- Magnitudes of frequency, amplitude, and harmonic content modulations, probabilities and probability distributions of flow randomisations.
- Tremulant modulations (behaviours, shapes, modulation depths, etc.).
- Swell box modulations (behaviours, shapes, modulation depths, etc.).

The user voicing controls (and similar controls on the 'Audio engine' tab of the organ preferences screen) simply allow you to amplify or attenuate the effects of such modulations on pipes, but if the models aren't configured at all within the organ definition, then the output of the models will be zero, so multiplying zero by any amount will still be zero.

Even if the voicing controls were instead to override the modulation magnitudes that the organ definition specified, it still wouldn't help (and the results would be at best zero, or at worst rubbish) because all of the other aspects of the models need to have been configured within the organ definition in order for the models to work properly (or at all).
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Theorbe

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bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostWed Feb 10, 2021 11:15 am

Hi Martin

Thanks for your explanation. I will experiment with making small random adjustments to the overall tuning in the Rank Voicing dialog. It is a shame that this would be disproportionately time consuming and fiddly. I'll look into way to possibly automate such adjustments. I'm aware of the Quick sliders in the dialog but not sure if they would produce the right result. But it may be the best compromise.

As it appears dangerous to make any assumptions when it comes to Hauptwerk, please could you confirm that tuning adjustments in the Rank Voicing dialog are not dependent on models being implemented in the ODF (and so cannot be 'overridden or 'ignored' for want of a better term)?

As a slight aside, although related, I found it's possible to adjust the tuning of individual pipes in the St. Eucaire de Metz using the Rank Voicing dialog even though the licence only permits the original organ temperament. It just seems a bit odd to disallow the use of a different temperament but still allow full control over the tuning of every pipe! Anyway, not of great importance but something I just found interesting.

Thanks.

Regards

Andy
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mdyde

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostWed Feb 10, 2021 12:15 pm

Thanks, Andy.

Theorbe wrote:As it appears dangerous to make any assumptions when it comes to Hauptwerk, please could you confirm that tuning adjustments in the Rank Voicing dialog are not dependent on models being implemented in the ODF (and so cannot be 'overridden or 'ignored' for want of a better term)?


That's correct -- the voicing tuning adjustments always add to whatever tuning the organ definition's models and user-selected base pitch and temperament determine.

Note that some sample set producers (I think only OrganArt Media, although I don't know whether that still applies) have licences that disallow voicing adjustments entirely, and the voicing screen is entirely disabled for those.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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larason2

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostWed Feb 10, 2021 9:17 pm

One note about St. Eucaire. The ODF that comes with the sample set has those restrictions, but if you make your own custom CODM organ, it doesn’t have those restrictions.
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Atn52

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostFri Feb 12, 2021 8:19 am

Note: this also includes an octave spread of up to 4 cents per octave, but this should be reduced degressively upwards in order to avoid the grilling of the overtones as I had published (Werkmeister 3, 4 cents degressively spread), this could be done for adjusting each register would result in a very voluminous sound. best regards Antonius
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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostFri Feb 12, 2021 4:34 pm

I have two OrganArt Media samplesets, Steinkirchen and Garcia-Martinez, and they both allow voicing.
I couldn't function without retouching the voicing!
RS
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CarsonCooman

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostFri Feb 12, 2021 7:09 pm

robsig wrote:I have two OrganArt Media samplesets, Steinkirchen and Garcia-Martinez, and they both allow voicing.
I couldn't function without retouching the voicing!


I think what Martin may have been remembering is that OAM sample sets do not allow release truncation or use of the samples with CODM. Those features are disabled. However, they do allow voicing.
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mdyde

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostSat Feb 13, 2021 4:28 am

Thanks, Rob and Carson for the clarification. My apologies for any confusion.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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mnailor

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostSun Feb 14, 2021 2:41 pm

About the detuning that can occur between different perspectives/channels/mic-positions of the same rank in surround samplesets:

If I turn off random detuning (0%), and *assuming* the ODF puts all the perspectives of the same rank on the same windchest, gives them the same wind supply response parameters, tuning, and swell box response, would that suffice to keep the perspectives at the same pitch?

Or are there other sources of pitch differences between surround channels of the same rank and note?

Thank you.
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mdyde

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostSun Feb 14, 2021 3:45 pm

Hello Mark,

That's correct, except that if you really wanted them to play at *exactly* the same pitches at all times you would potentially also need to turn air flow randomisation down to zero (on the Organ Preferences screen), since flow randomisation imparts very slight constant variations in modelled air flow (and thus pitch, amplitude, and harmonic-content) for each virtual pipe.

However, you might find it acceptable to leave flow randomisation on (if all of the other things you mention apply), since the real-time variations in pitches of the front and rear virtual pipes for a given real pipe would be tiny and would centre around the same pitch.

Also loop playback still wouldn't be synchronised (unless the sample set producer had put exactly the same loop points in the front and rear pipes, and only the first loop was used/loaded), so there would still be some phase movement between front and rear as the samples loop. There is no way to avoid that currently, but again that effect would usually be small.

[As I've mentioned in other threads, adding fully native support for handling playback of multiple recorded perspectives absolutely correctly is logged as a very high-priority enhancement (but it's a major one).]
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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mnailor

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostSun Feb 14, 2021 7:08 pm

Thanks, Martin!
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Theorbe

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bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostFri Feb 26, 2021 9:11 pm

Regarding those ‘bad sounding sample sets’, I’ve developed a solution by creating a small application to add random detuning values into the OrganConfig file. So I can now apply series of random values (with a normal distribution) over any or all virtual ranks.

I can apply the same random values to each perspective in a rank, which is what Hauptwerk’s random pipe detuning doesn’t do (yet), or I can apply different values to produce the chorus effect that I prefer. Or even mix and match. So, for example, for solo ranks, e.g. En Chamade, I prefer to have the detuning in sync across all perspectives (so no chorus effect), and also to apply a lower standard deviation for those ranks to make them more in-tune.

So, I tried out my app on the S.P. Billerbeck Dom demo and it makes such a huge difference that I’m now happy to go ahead and buy it. Previously, although I could hear its potential, it just sounded lifeless and synthetic. So that’s what prompted me to develop this solution. Although primarily for myself, it has always been in my mind that other users may find it useful. I welcome views from MDA on that front.

The app has couple of issues at present:

1. The organ has to be reloaded for the modified settings file to take effect (not a big deal)
2. Because the app currently reads the rank names and their IDs from the ODF, it won’t currently work with encrypted ODFs

Anyway, I’m now happy that I now have full and fine control over the random detuning of my (unencrypted) sample sets. And I’ve enjoyed getting back into programming (using Delphi) after many years.

Andy
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mdyde

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostSat Feb 27, 2021 4:51 am

Hello Andy,

Theorbe wrote: So that’s what prompted me to develop this solution. Although primarily for myself, it has always been in my mind that other users may find it useful. I welcome views from MDA on that front.


Glad to hear you've managed to 'hack' it to behave how you like it. However, Hauptwerk's configuration files are an internal and undocumented part of Hauptwerk, that aren't meant to be edited by people, and their format changes at least to some extent between most Hauptwerk versions. Editing them in any way is definitely unsupported, and at your own risk. One could very easily break somebody's Hauptwerk installation in unexpected ways, and cause us a lot of technical support work. (Strictly speaking, it's also actually in breach of the licence agreement.) If you want to do it yourself for your own personal purposes (at your own risk, unsupported), then that's up to you since you're a very technical person, but I think we definitely wouldn't anything distributed publicly that attempted to edit any of Hauptwerk's internal files. But thanks very much for checking in advance, and for your understanding.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Theorbe

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostSat Feb 27, 2021 5:07 am

Hi Martin

I fully understand. I'm sorry to hear that, strictly speaking, I've breached the licence agreement, which I haven't read fully (as is usually the case with the vast majority of people). I had assumed that since it was editing a settings file, not an ODF, it would be OK.

If you can assure me I can achieve the same goal via CODM then I'm happy to try that route. I've only had a quick look at CODM so far.

Thanks again.

Andy
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mdyde

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostSat Feb 27, 2021 5:20 am

Thanks very much, Andy.

You wouldn't be able to adjust pipes' tuning individually via the CODM, I'm afraid. That's only possible via the voicing screen or within the 'full' ODF format (for sample set developers).
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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