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bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

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Aristide

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bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostWed Aug 26, 2020 7:47 am

Hello Hauptwerk community,

Maybe this post will help having more quality instruments in future.
I have to say my disappointment for most of the new sample sets I tried to listen (in demos).
They sound awful, electronic, as an old electronic organ of '80 years..

The reason of this is what I said many times to sample set producers.. they must not edit samples so much! they must not tune automatically! they must leave the original tone, tuning of each pipe, with their not perfect tuning and speaking. The magic of organ is this! if you take every pipe sample and tune perfectly at 440hz, correct all problems in studio you create a new pornofono sound! a lot of technology to return at years '80 electronic organs.. please if you are in doubt ask to some expert organist before doing such things. It's really a pity because many sample sets could be great without this problem.
Thanks God many sample set producer know this and their organs sound good. Thanks everybody for your work.
Last edited by Aristide on Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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josq

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostWed Aug 26, 2020 9:33 am

Hello! I'm not sure what sample sets you are referring to. I don't recognize this problem in sample sets of major producers like Sonus Paradisi and OAM.

I agree that occasionally samples are edited too much. I suspect it is mainly a matter of too aggressive noise filtering. I rather have a tiny bit of noise than a sterile sound.
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seh52

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostWed Aug 26, 2020 11:09 am

I have installed, tuned and voiced more than 100 sample sets.

Most benefit from tonal finishing and detuning to suit intended use, equipment and space.

Detuning in 2 ways simulates how pipes drift out of tune over time.
First--the higher the pipe's pitch, the sharper it goes.
Second--the reed pipes go flat of the flues.

The random detuning control in Hauptwerk may help, too.

Detuning is done by ear for each organ.

The result of detuning and tonal finishing is a much warmer and more realistic sound that guest concert organists and audiences appreciate.
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sesquialtera

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostWed Aug 26, 2020 1:31 pm

Hello,

I have to say my disappointment for most of the new sample sets I tried to listen (in demos).
They sound awful, electronic, as an old electronic organ of '80 years..

The reason of this is what I said many times to sample set producers.. they must not edit samples so much! they must not tune automatically! they must leave the original tone, tuning of each pipe, with their not perfect tuning and speaking. The magic of organ is this! if you take every pipe sample and tune perfectly at 440hz, correct all problems in studio you create a new pornofono sound! a lot of technology to return at years '80 electronic organs.. please if you are in doubt ask to some expert organist before doing such things. It's really a pity because many sample sets could be great without this problem.
Thanks God many sample set producer know this and their organs sound good. Thanks everybody for your work.


I fully agree and support this point of view, because I know this kind of disappointment too.
A real pipe organ is always somewhat out of tune, and this is why I love this instrument.

Hello! I'm not sure what sample sets you are referring to. I don't recognize this problem in sample sets of major producers like Sonus Paradisi and OAM.

Fully agree too, but I know some others that could be concerned... !

I have installed, tuned and voiced more than 100 sample sets.
Most benefit from tonal finishing and detuning to suit intended use, equipment and space.
Detuning in 2 ways simulates how pipes drift out of tune over time.
First--the higher the pipe's pitch, the sharper it goes.
Second--the reed pipes go flat of the flues.
The random detuning control in Hauptwerk may help, too.
Detuning is done by ear for each organ.
The result of detuning and tonal finishing is a much warmer and more realistic sound that guest concert organists and audiences appreciate.

This is exatly the kind of thing I don't want to do.
I want to play and rehearse music with a sampleset as it is, "out of the box",
and don't want to spend hours or days to make DIY tuning or voicing, with hundreds of reverbs and dozen of speakers ...
When you sit on the bench of a real organ and pull some stops, you'll have to deal with it !
And the sound is never the same, depending of the seanson. (humidity and temperature).
I think that when you buy a sampleset, you pay to avoid this kind of long unsatisfactory process...
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micdev

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostWed Aug 26, 2020 1:58 pm

This is exatly the kind of thing I don't want to do.
I want to play and rehearse music with a sampleset as it is, "out of the box",


Without spending hours detuning, you can try to change Hauptwerk Random pipe detuning adjustment (in Organ settings /Organ Preferences/Audio Engine). By default it is set at 100%... you can increase this value up to 500%

Also, in the Wind supply model tab you can also increase the Wind model modulation... up to 500%. By playing with these 2 settings you will get a more lively sound in a matter of seconds.
Best regards
François

Virtually sharing my enthusiasm and experience with you
Worldwide technical assistance, consultation and ready to play system.

http://www.HauptwerkConsultant.com

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ReinerS

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostThu Aug 27, 2020 1:04 pm

Without spending hours detuning, you can try to change Hauptwerk Random pipe detuning adjustment (in Organ settings /Organ Preferences/Audio Engine). By default it is set at 100%... you can increase this value up to 500%

A known issue with HW is that the random detuning feature cannot be used with surround or multi-channel samplesets. This is known and has been discussed here since quite some time. The reason is that there is no way to tell HW which samples belong together. As a result random detuning will detune front and rear samples of the same pipes against each other, which is definitely NOT desired! I hope that this shortcoming will be addressed soon.

As a workaround my newer samplesets (Furtwängler und Hammer in Königslutter and also the Weigle organ in Nagold) contain their own adjustable random detuning feature. I fully agree with the statement that an exactly tuned organ just doesn't sound right, it sounds somehow dead.
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CWEB

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostFri Aug 28, 2020 2:28 am

I agree with much of what has been said. But 'random' detuning isn't quite what we want. In a real organ there is a random element, but mostly tuning follows predictable patterns depending on temperature changes. In particular the flues go out of tune with the reeds, and depending on the layout divisions will go out of tune with each other.

A fairly convincing effect is possible in Hauptwerk by manual tuning without having to adjust every pipe. What I've done with some sets (it works especially well with Caen) is as follows. Detune the reeds from the flues. Detune each division from the others. Detune a few randomly selected notes from the reed trebbles where they are naturally less stable. The total tuning range is probably about 3 cents - you don't want to go much further than that. It doesn't actually take long to do.

I imagine something similar could be implemented in Hauptwerk:
1. Each rank is given a value for how much it is affected by temperature.
2. Each rank has a value for its relative tuning stability.
3. Each rank is allocated to a 'spacial division' within the organ.
4.Each 'spacial division' is given a value by the sample maker.
5. The user chooses a value for 'deviation from tuned temperature' and Hauptwerk does the rest.

I think that would be really useful. In churches you could even have a temperature sensor input so that it sounds suitably diabolical in high summer and the depths of winter!
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mdyde

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostFri Aug 28, 2020 3:37 am

Hello CWEB,

Thanks for the idea, which I've logged for future consideration.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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josq

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostFri Aug 28, 2020 4:25 am

At the end of a concert, an organ might be slightly detuned compared to the start of the concert. An organ never sounds exactly the same.

It would be fun (and realistic!) to have an option to let the tuning of the samples drift depending on pipe type and hypothetical temperature changes.
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StephenM

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostSat Aug 29, 2020 11:48 pm

Another feature to experiment with in HW5 is temperament.
It doesn't take long to end up with 20 temperaments to experiment with..
Several sites give good discussion of temperaments eg pure temperaments.
There is also a free temperament maker available on line.

Stephen
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Theorbe

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bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostTue Feb 09, 2021 7:06 pm

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Last edited by Theorbe on Sat Jan 13, 2024 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ReinerS

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostWed Feb 10, 2021 2:27 am

Theorbe wrote:Hi All

Firstly, I am in absolute agreement with the title of this thread. I loathe the sound of 'perfectly' tuned organs. Thank goodness, then, for Hauptwerk's built-in random pipe detuning option, or so I thought. I'm aware of the issue regarding the detuning of surround perspectives not being in sync. I actually like this side effect very much, and perhaps there are others that do too.

It appears, however, that Jiri from Sonus Paradisi does not like this side effect. Therefore, his latest sample sets IGNORE YOUR RANDOM PIPE DETUNING setting and use a value of ZERO. So, like it or lump it.


Andy

Well, the same is true for all surround sample sets made by Pipeloops. It never occured to me that anyone would like the idea of SINGLE PIPES sounding like a Celeste even when played alone. I do provide on those sets a built-in random detuning feature that allows the same effect as the one built-in Hauptwerk, only that front and rear samples always will be detuned by the same amount, so single pipes will have a normal tone when played alone.

I think the number of users who are surprised (and annoyed) that their default Hauptwerk setting (Random detuning at 100%) leads to this very strange effect in a surround set is far greater than those who actually like every stop to sound like a Celeste.

Just my 2 cts

Best regards
Reiner
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Theorbe

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bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostWed Feb 10, 2021 6:01 am

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Last edited by Theorbe on Sat Jan 13, 2024 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mdyde

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostWed Feb 10, 2021 6:34 am

Theorbe wrote:However, I think that choice should be an informed one and not based upon an incorrect assumption that we can always change settings in Hauptwerk when in reality it appears to be the sample set producer who decides what we can and can't change. This is a point I will raise on a separate topic.


Hello Andy,

I assume you mean that you'd like to be able to override/adjust all of the relevant settings within the organ definition that control how random tuning (and other functional aspects of a sample set) behave.

There are many, many settings within the organ definition file for which no equivalent user settings exist. We can't realistically get into adding user settings for all (or even most, or many) of them, since the resulting amount of user settings would be enormous and very technical, and effectively unusable and incomprehensible to most users, and also unsupportable. Sorry -- that isn't something that we'd want to do.

If a sample set's licence allows it, and if you really want to buy a particular sample set but you don't like the functionality that the its maker has implemented in its organ definition then you could potentially make your own organ definition for it using the Custom Organ Design Module (or the 'full' organ definition format, which allows full control of all settings, but is very technical and involved -- we don't provide technical support/assistance beyond sending the relevant documentation).

Many sample set producers allow you to evaluate their sample sets before purchasing them, so you can make an informed decision about whether you like their functionality and want to buy them.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Theorbe

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bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostWed Feb 10, 2021 7:39 am

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Last edited by Theorbe on Sat Jan 13, 2024 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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