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Trost Organ Demo

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voet

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Trost Organ Demo

PostSun Apr 18, 2021 10:26 am

Bálint Karosi has done an excellent YouTube video demonstrating the 1728 Trost Organ in Waltershausen, Germany. It would be helpful for anyone considering purchasing the sample set from Organ Art Media.

This instrument's gentle sound is very different from North German organs, which is probably more typical of the instruments that Bach most often played. It is not known if he ever played this particular instrument, but he did comment favorably on Trost's later instrument in Altenburg.
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OrganoPleno

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Re: Trost Organ Demo

PostMon Apr 19, 2021 2:22 pm

Very helpful indeed!
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josq

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Re: Trost Organ Demo

PostMon Apr 19, 2021 3:14 pm

I can recommend Balints channel!
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abaymajr

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Re: Trost Organ Demo

PostWed Feb 23, 2022 7:45 am

Motivated by Mr. Balints' beautiful demonstration, I revisited the OAM Trost sampleset, which had been left aside for some time, and noticed that the same demonstrated combinations were sounding somewhat harsh/rough through the sampleset compared to the demo recording. Both the sampleset and demo seem to have a similar recording perspective. Would it be something related to the modifications implemented in HW7? Could anyone give his/her own impressions?
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mdyde

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Re: Trost Organ Demo

PostWed Feb 23, 2022 8:14 am

Hello abaymajr,

In Hauptwerk v7, on the "Organ settings | Organ preferences | Audio engine" screen, if you currently have the "Tremulant/wind supply/swell box/relay model quality" organ preference set to 'Higher' then try instead setting it to 'Medium' (which gives equivalent behaviour to v6). The 'Higher' option may yield slightly different results from the wind supply model, compared to 'Medium', depending on the sample set's wind model and per-core CPU performance. See also the release notice for full details on that.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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mnailor

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Re: Trost Organ Demo

PostWed Feb 23, 2022 9:43 pm

I've noticed that some samplesets I hadn't played in a while sound much *rougher* than I remember them. For example, Little Waldingfield and Ebersmunster are hard on my ears, when a year ago they seemed okay.

I think the difference might be that I switched from 48k to 96k sample rate on a faster PC shortly after I upgraded to HW 7, not because of the higher audio quality option in 7, and I'm using the models at medium same as HW 6.

These few samplesets sound harsh in medium quality (HW 6 mode) now, too.
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larason2

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Re: Trost Organ Demo

PostWed Feb 23, 2022 10:46 pm

Don’t forget that Little Waldingfield maxes out at 16 bit. After being used to hearing organs at 24 bit, 16 bit will sound harsh by comparison.
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mnailor

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Re: Trost Organ Demo

PostWed Feb 23, 2022 11:16 pm

I was comparing LW at 48k to LW at 96k, not to any 24 bit samples. Yes, it's always been a bit noisy, but I'm used to that. And Ebersmunster is 24 bit.

There are still no reasonably complete pre-1800 English organs for HW -- with a Cornet, Trumpet, Flute and small reed, at least -- so I still use LW. Silver Octopus has some good small chamber organs, but none of them have a sufficient disposition to play all the Stanley voluntaries as marked, for example. I'm hoping their Smith/Snetzler/Willis gets released soon, which should be a better option than LW even omitting some of the later added stops.

I was just wondering if the previous commenter was used to Trost at 48k and was now hearing differences due to changing to 96k. I don't think the new HW 7 would affect playback of one pipe much unless it's a modeled trem, but I could be wrong. I'm hearing more surface noise (sizzle) in single notes of flues. Don't have Trost to compare.
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mdyde

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Re: Trost Organ Demo

PostThu Feb 24, 2022 5:17 am

Hello Mark,

With the two organ preferences set to 'medium' Hauptwerk's audio processing will be exactly the same as v6's (with v6's 'high-definition pitch-shifting' on), as would its background models [with the very slight exception that on Windows specifically the background model processing intervals may have a bit les timing 'jitter' in v7 than v6, but that shouldn't affect the overall results from the wind model significantly, and would slightly reduce other distortions anyway].

However, given that you have a powerful PC, I'd definitely recommend setting the "Audio engine processing quality" organ preference to 'higher', since it will significantly/noticeably reduce distortions from the real-time filters (compared to 'medium' or any previous Hauptwerk version), especially when the filters are changing dynamically, as they do constantly as a result of the wind model, air flow randomisation models, etc. The same filter equations are used in all cases (so that the magnitude/phase responses will be the same), but the way they're applied in real-time gives much lower distortion in 'higher' mode.

96 kHz will generally reduce distortions, compared to 48 kHz, and especially so for aliasing distortion if samples' pitches are raised. I suppose it might conceivably make some other distortions more easily heard, due to them no longer being audibly 'masked' by other distortions. However, as long as "Audio engine processing quality" is set to 'higher' then distortions from the audio engine should be so low as to be inaudible anyway.

If anything, rather than being related to the sample rate, I'd suspect that the differences you mention (at medium/medium/96kHz on your new PC, compared to medium/medium/48kHz on your old PC) are more likely to be due to your new PC having higher per-core performance, which might affect the output of the wind supply model a bit. A quick test would be to try disabling the wind model entirely (on the "Organ settings | Organ preferences | Wind supply model" screen tab), and if that affects the harshness that you're referring to then you could re-enable it but experiment with turning down its depth and/or flow adjustments on that same screen tab.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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mnailor

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Re: Trost Organ Demo

PostThu Feb 24, 2022 7:33 am

I do have audio processing quality on higher for every organ. I was just referring to a test of medium that didn't help.

I did reduce the wind supply pipe flow adjustment on those organs to stop wobbling high notes, but I'll try killing the wind model after people are awake.

Thank you.
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Re: Trost Organ Demo

PostThu Feb 24, 2022 7:48 am

Thanks, Mark.

P.S. You could of course also try comparing the output at 48 kHz to 96 kHz by changing the Hauptwerk sample rate. Aside from anything that Hauptwerk produces, it could conceivably be that your audio interface's DAC sounds a bit different at the two rates. You could probably also test that by making a recording from Hauptwerk at 48 kHz, exiting Hauptwerk, then playing it back in an audio editor (at 48 kHz, and using the same ASIO driver that you use with Hauptwerk), then upsampling the recording to 96 kHz, then playing it again (at 96 kHz) to compare.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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mnailor

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Re: Trost Organ Demo

PostThu Feb 24, 2022 8:28 am

I didn't think of the DAC, but that might be why I hear more noise.

I think I'm just picking up the real sizzle from some Principals more than before, not that there's any added noise. I hear more of the same when I turn up the rank brightness, so it's in the samples.

Most likely, after a little more experimenting, I'll get used to it and like it.

Thanks again. This was never meant to be a complaint!
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mdyde

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Re: Trost Organ Demo

PostThu Feb 24, 2022 8:50 am

You're very welcome!
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Trost Organ Demo

PostThu Feb 24, 2022 10:05 am

mdyde wrote:Hello abaymajr,

In Hauptwerk v7, on the "Organ settings | Organ preferences | Audio engine" screen, if you currently have the "Tremulant/wind supply/swell box/relay model quality" organ preference set to 'Higher' then try instead setting it to 'Medium' (which gives equivalent behaviour to v6). The 'Higher' option may yield slightly different results from the wind supply model, compared to 'Medium', depending on the sample set's wind model and per-core CPU performance. See also the release notice for full details on that.


Thanks, mdyde, for your prompt reply. I played with this parameter, but the difference, if any, was small to my ears. What mitigated it somewhat was the total shutdown of Wind Modelling, but giving up this feature permanently is a difficult decision to make. I ended up adjusting Overall brightness for all registers to -1.5db. It gave me a result both subjectively nicer and objectively closer to the reference demo recording.

Really, this harshness, if it was already in the sampleset, had never bothered me. Maybe that direct comparison that I recently made, stop by stop, combination by combination, was enough to call my attention to this fact.
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Re: Trost Organ Demo

PostThu Feb 24, 2022 10:31 am

Thanks, abaymajr.

If you wanted to, you could potentially also experiment with adjusting the wind model depth and/or flow adjustments on the "Organ settings | Organ preferences | Wind supply model" screen tab. However, since the Balint Karosi demo recording was made directly on the real Trost organ, it will inevitably never sound exactly the same as any recording made from a sample set. (Aside from Hauptwerk, mic. positions/models, sample processing, etc. would make a significant difference to the end result.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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