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Nancy - new sample set released

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magnaton

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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostSun May 30, 2021 8:38 am

Thomas344 wrote:If Piotr wants to support the cathedral, he can really like to do so. But I do not want to. Nevertheless, by buying the set you are forced to do so. It is not voluntary. In addition, VAT is added.

Geez, that is a traditional business model. To sample a substantial organ such as this, the producer would either pay a one time fee up front or offer royalties on each copy sold. I know two of Lavender's sets mention this arrangement as does Peterborough Cathedral.

I for one was stunned by the realism. Did you notice at the end of the Vierne encore Richard M was seemed bit overwhelmed with the sound & performance!

Danny B.
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Thomas344

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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostSun May 30, 2021 10:41 am

Dear Piotr,
nothing against you. But you think wrong. If you want/need to donate something, then that's how it should be:
You make a "reasonable" price for the user. From this price you can donate as much as you want.
What you do is: You charge a "normal" price and then charge the user for the donation. That is not correct, sorry! Maybe you should think about that too. You can't just turn your agreements with third parties over to us. But then you still charge a high price for the set. If you are going to donate, then please do so with your share!
If we are to donate, we would also like to know how much of the cost goes away as a donation. One can claim a lot. Is there any documentation you can show us? You should be a little more transparent. I would like to know how much of my money goes where as a donation. Please enlighten us.
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CWEB

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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostSun May 30, 2021 11:34 am

Thomas344 wrote:Dear Piotr,
nothing against you. But you think wrong. If you want/need to donate something, then that's how it should be:
You make a "reasonable" price for the user. From this price you can donate as much as you want.
What you do is: You charge a "normal" price and then charge the user for the donation. That is not correct, sorry! Maybe you should think about that too. You can't just turn your agreements with third parties over to us. But then you still charge a high price for the set. If you are going to donate, then please do so with your share!
If we are to donate, we would also like to know how much of the cost goes away as a donation. One can claim a lot. Is there any documentation you can show us? You should be a little more transparent. I would like to know how much of my money goes where as a donation. Please enlighten us.


You're way off with this. The vendor is entitled to ask whatever price they wish, and to dispose of the proceeds as they wish. The prospective customer is entitled not to buy if they don't like the deal on offer. Not sure where you do business but that's how it is in most places...
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voet

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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostSun May 30, 2021 11:53 am

As I have built my collection of Hauptwerk samples sets, I wanted an instrument suitable for French Romantic music. I had Caen on my wish-list, but when Piotr Garbowski announced the planned release of Nancy, I decided to wait to make my decision.

If the decision based solely on cost, I would have chosen Caen. However, I have decided to pay more for Nancy for the following reasons:

First, the Nancy Cavaillé-Coll is a beautiful instrument. If it did not measure up to the Caen organ, there would be no contest.

Second, I appreciate what Piotr Garbowski has done for the Hauptwerk community. By making many fine instruments available without charge, he has opened the Hauptwerk experience to a wider audience. While I have always made a contribution when obtaining one of Piotr’s free instruments, that has always been a voluntary act—not something that he could depend on in every instance.

Third, I do not mind supporting the Association pour le renouveau des orgues de la cathédrale de Nancy. If pipe organs were birds, they would be declared an endangered species. I am not religious, but I recognize that churches are the primary patrons of the organ. I am willing to help fund the restoration of Cavaillé-Coll opus 699.

Finally, the opportunity to record an instrument for Hauptwerk always involves a negotiation between the owner of the organ and the sample set creator. That is the “price of admission” that enables instruments to become available to the Hauptwerk community. The price of the Nancy Cavaillé-Coll may be beyond the budget of some people. Often the instruments I want the most, cost the most. However, those are usually the instruments that give me the most joy.
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bourdon

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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostSun May 30, 2021 3:08 pm

And , as a compromise, wouldn't it be possible to release 2 and 4 channel versions , that would be less expensive ( and also request less Memory !..) , as Sonus Paradisi did with Groningen ?
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JulianMoney-Kyrle

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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostSun May 30, 2021 6:22 pm

Douglas,

I have clearly overestimated what the UK price would be - I think I must have misread the price in Euros and then miscalculated the conversion to Sterling. Nevertheless, £765 is still a lot of money for me to find. I think if it had been around £450 I wouldn't have hesitated, but I already have a large CC instrument and I don't think I would play it enough to justify the cost unless it turns out to be something really special.

There is presumably a relationship between the price of a sampleset and the number of people who buy it, and therefore an optimum price to maximise profitability, which will vary from organ to organ. Piotr, I am sure, is aware of this and presumably set the price accordingly. I would be very interested to know whether Nancy hits the sweet spot at 699 Euros, however. We will have to wait and see.

I have nothing against supporting the cathedral, as after all they didn't have to agree to have their organ sampled, and presumably they are responsible for maintaining it.

With regard to the idea of paying VAT on donations, you have to remember that the UK Government charges VAT on every component of the transaction, (including postage where physical goods are involved). If there is import duty payable, they charge VAT on the duty as well, a sort of meta-tax. I once bought some china while on holiday in Vietnam; the vendor arranged shipping and the total price seemed very reasonable. However, when the goods reached the UK I discovered that I had also been charged for fumigation and various health and safety certificates, storage at the port (at a daily rate, which had started even before I was aware that they had arrived), carriage from the port to my home using an approved courier, once that could be arranged, some sort of release fee, import duty, and VAT on everything. This more than doubled the price and I would have been much better off buying my dinner service from a department store in England.
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Thomas344

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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostMon May 31, 2021 12:47 am

CWEB wrote:
CWEB wrote:You're way off with this. The vendor is entitled to ask whatever price they wish, and to dispose of the proceeds as they wish. The prospective customer is entitled not to buy if they don't like the deal on offer. Not sure where you do business but that's how it is in most places...

Since you don't understand, I'll be happy to answer your question. For purchases, I am happy to support smaller companies. Transparency is more important than ever in today's society. Therefore, I know many small companies that act very openly. This is becoming more and more popular and will continue to be supported by a growing group of buyers. Especially when it comes to donations, the transparency I mentioned is extremely important. The customer should have the right to know which portion is donated to a good cause. In short, unlike you, I seem to prefer buying from smaller companies. Whether and to what extent the transparency I want is legally enforceable is another question. But that is not the point at all. Especially in such a small community as Hauptwerk, transparency is a question of appreciation towards the customer. Unfortunately, you only see the purely legal side. But now you know who else I do business with. Just take a leaf out of my book. That is certainly good in this day and age :-)
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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostMon May 31, 2021 10:57 am

JulianMoney-Kyrle wrote:Douglas,
With regard to the idea of paying VAT on donations, you have to remember that the UK Government charges VAT on every component of the transaction, (including postage where physical goods are involved). If there is import duty payable, they charge VAT on the duty as well, a sort of meta-tax. I once bought some china while on holiday in Vietnam; the vendor arranged shipping and the total price seemed very reasonable. However, when the goods reached the UK I discovered that I had also been charged for fumigation and various health and safety certificates, storage at the port (at a daily rate, which had started even before I was aware that they had arrived), carriage from the port to my home using an approved courier, once that could be arranged, some sort of release fee, import duty, and VAT on everything. This more than doubled the price and I would have been much better off buying my dinner service from a department store in England.

To be more exact, I don't donate the association. This is our agreement, they're non-profit, but it is kind of business agreement. I am the seller, I sell a digital service. It is not possible to force anyone to pay a donation - at least not legal, as some sample set producers do with a minimal donation requirement.
Piotr Grabowski - Virtual Pipe Organ Sample Sets
https://piotrgrabowski.pl
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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostMon May 31, 2021 12:46 pm

I must admit that this set is rather more expensive than I had expected, but Piotr is entitled to charge what he feels is appropriate for it, just as we are entitled not to buy it if we think it's too much. I do think a simple 2-channel version at reduced cost for those of us who have modest systems and use headphones would be likely to improve the sales though.

I enjoyed Richard M's recital very much, and also the demos on Piotr's website, which are good performances. There's no doubt that this is a very fine-sounding instrument with a lot going for it.

My question is: to what extent is it a CC? I see on the website that only 35% of the pipework is actually CC. The organ sounds pretty much like a CC to me, and the alterations made to it over the years do make it more versatile. But on Hauptwerk, versatiity is not really an issue: when I want to play Bach or Reger I just load a different organ suited to the repertoire and off I go. I would imagine therefore that the other CC sets available offer a more undiluted and 'authentic' CC experience (as far as playing in a garden shed in Sussex can ever be authentic to anything...!). Any reflections on that would be very interesting to hear, particularly from those who have tried both Nancy and the other sets.

Clarabella
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OrganoPleno

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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostMon May 31, 2021 3:54 pm

Clarabella8 wrote:My question is: to what extent is it a CC?


The new Instrument is truly a magnificent achievement for Hauptwerk, and an absolute joy to play.

As to other available Sample Sets of "Cavaillé-Coll" organs, there really are just a few:

The St. Omer by Sonus Paradisi was a rebuild of an original Organ from 1717.

The Metz is actually by Mutin, the successor to Cavaillé-Coll in the same shop.

The one from Organ Arts Media was originally by Ducroquet and modified by Cavaillé-Coll.

So it looks like the only "real" Cavaillé-Coll Sample Set available would be the Caen. Also a marvellous Sample Set, especially in its latest v2.66 presentation. Some of the others mentioned may be "showing their age" by now, as Sampling Techniques continue to make vast improvements.

The Caen reflects a very different Tonal Concept from the Nancy, being built about 25 years later, reflecting the then-new vision for a "Symphonic" Organ. The Nancy reflects Cavaillé-Coll in his more youthful exuberance, and while being a fully "Romantic" Organ, contains stronger echos of the earlier Baroque ideal.

Found on-line (about the Nancy Cathedral Organ):
"This was Cavaillé-Coll's biggest work in France outside of Paris. The organ's outstanding specification, its size, and its sound, together with the cathedral's extraordinary acoustics, give this organ a richness and a depth of sound barely achieved elsewhere by the greatest organ builder of his time."
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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostMon May 31, 2021 4:09 pm

OrganoPleno wrote:
Clarabella8 wrote:My question is: to what extent is it a CC?

As to other available Sample Sets of "Cavaillé-Coll" organs, there really are just a few:

I don't want to advertise here myself, but Oloron-Sainte-Marie from my collection is also 100% original CC.
Piotr Grabowski - Virtual Pipe Organ Sample Sets
https://piotrgrabowski.pl
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larason2

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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostMon May 31, 2021 4:30 pm

Very few of Cavaillé-Coll’s organs are 100% pipes made by him. When he set out to rebuild an organ, he inspected all of the original pipes, and any that didn’t meet his standards he disposed of (probably melted down to make new pipes), and any that did meet his standards but didn’t fit in the current project he kept and used in future organs, particularly small ones. He didn’t just leave the pipes unaltered however, he modified them and revoiced them according to his usual practice. For instance, he generally modified principals by adding a slot in them. Therefore, when he finished an organ, all of the pipes, whether he originally made them or not, had the characteristic sound he is known for, and might as well have been made by him. Caen fits in this category, as CC used a substantial amount of existing pipe work when he made the organ, and I suspect Oloron St. Marie also used pipes from other organs that CC had kept. When CC died, there was a huge stockpile of pipes in his workshop left over from a wide range of sources, as I recall.
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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostMon May 31, 2021 7:21 pm

Thomas344 wrote:Dear Piotr,
nothing against you. But you think wrong. If you want/need to donate something, then that's how it should be:
You make a "reasonable" price for the user. From this price you can donate as much as you want.
What you do is: You charge a "normal" price and then charge the user for the donation. That is not correct, sorry! Maybe you should think about that too. You can't just turn your agreements with third parties over to us. But then you still charge a high price for the set. If you are going to donate, then please do so with your share!
If we are to donate, we would also like to know how much of the cost goes away as a donation. One can claim a lot. Is there any documentation you can show us? You should be a little more transparent. I would like to know how much of my money goes where as a donation. Please enlighten us.


Sorry, but this post makes no sense. He can charge whatever he wants, and the market will determine whether or not he set the price correctly. Also, he obviously has to cover his costs so taking a loss is not a reasonable expectation.

If you don't want to pay, don't get it. It's pretty simple.
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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostMon May 31, 2021 7:32 pm

I think there is a language barrier here. I believe that the owners of the organ have permitted the sampling in return for a 'piece of the action', or more formally, a portion of the proceeds. This is very common here and a common way business has always been done. Nothing wrong with this. Buy it if you want to, or don't buy it. Up to you.
Regards,
Ray
Ray
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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostMon May 31, 2021 8:00 pm

I would have bought this sampleset at this price before I retired 18 months ago, but now I have to restrain myself as if I'm living on a fixed income. Rats.

I don't think it's priced unusually high for the organ's size and number of perspectives, whether I can afford it or not.

Compare it to Groningen, Caen dry + surround bundle, Haarlem surround, Salisbury and ND Metz until the recent MDA price reductions. Nancy is priced similarly, and PG's quality is up there with the others.
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