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Blackburn Cathedral sample set

Existing and forthcoming Hauptwerk instruments, recommendations, ...
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IainStinson

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Blackburn Cathedral sample set

PostMon Jan 10, 2022 12:40 pm

I understand from Facebook that Llannerch Organs, in a joint venture with Evensong, are bringing out a sample set of the Blackburn Cathedral organ later in the year. Have a look at https://llannerchorgans.square.site/ if you are interested.

Iain
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Charles Braund

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Re: Blackburn Cathedral sample set

PostTue Jan 11, 2022 9:56 am

Now that is definitely an instrument that will be welcome.
I had hoped one day to be able to do it myself but time and distance had made this difficult if not impossible. Regardless of all the many other worthwhile instruments that could be or have been sampled in the UK, Blackburn is the one that I would consider to be amongst the most desirable and unique.
I suppose that Blackburn was one of my "Damascene" moments. The very first time I played it was shortly after it had been built and John Bertalot the then organist, allowed me free access to the instrument many times during school term time. It was the first instrument designed along modern lines that I ever played and of course it is still one of the most visually stunning instruments in existence. There is the additional plus factor that it is "multiphonic" in that the four unique sections are in different locations (in two opposing L shapes). All consist of open display pipework and the whole instrument speaks into a superb acoustic. Without doubt, it is one of Walker's best ever instruments.
The organ was voiced by my one time late boss Dennis Thurlow when he was at Walker's and the Blackburn instrument was one main reason why I took up his offer to become his personal assistant rather than taking up a similar offer from Noel Mander.
I'm sure that Llanerch / Evensong will make a good job of it because if so, it will be really something else .

And to think that it only cost just a bit over £30,000 at the time !
Last edited by Charles Braund on Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Andrew Grahame

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Re: Blackburn Cathedral sample set

PostTue Jan 11, 2022 7:35 pm

I recall reading an account of the origin of the Walker organ at Blackburn Cathedral. Apparently the organist John Bertalot found a letter in his mail one morning containing a cheque for a very substantial sum from an anonymous donor, specifying that it be used to provide the cathedral with a new organ. The rest, as they say, is history.
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giwro

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Re: Blackburn Cathedral sample set

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 1:07 pm

Hello everyone,

We are excited to work on this project, and if the raw recordings are any indication, it will be something special! We did a small test instrument for John to try so we could determine whether to do 4 or 6 channels… just the 4 stops we did alone sounded amazing, and I believe it’s a really good sonic picture of the organ. It will take some time to get through it all, as with 3 perspectives it’s really like doing noise reduction on a 180-stop organ :shock:

It so happens that Blackburn is one of my favorite UK organs, so it’s rather a dream come true to be able to help bring it to the HW community.
Jonathan Orwig
Coon Rapids, Minnesota USA
http://www.evensongmusic.net
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smfrank

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Re: Blackburn Cathedral sample set

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 2:00 pm

There have been several comments about the high cost.
Since the distribution cost is practically nil, a much lower price might translate into many more sales, and a greater overall profit. I like to support producers and buy lots of sample sets, especially from Evensong. I have over 130 sets. But my largesse has its limits :) Just my 2 cents.
Steve
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JulianMoney-Kyrle

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Re: Blackburn Cathedral sample set

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 7:49 pm

Steve,

That is a very interesting point. I, too, have bought a lot of sample sets (only about half as many as you) but although I would be interested in this one, at that price point I don't think I am likely to buy it. I was eagerly awaiting Nancy, but when it came out it was about 50% more expensive than I expected and even with the current 15% discount I can't justify it, particularly as there are other instruments on my wish list.

Clearly the price must influence the number of sales, and when the profit per unit is multiplied by the number of units there must be a sweet spot, but I don't know how you would go about establishing where this is and therefore how to set a suitable price.

I would imagine there are some users who want a single large organ that does everything, or else a few more varied instruments to cover the types of music that they play (French Romantic, Baroque, American Classic...). For them the hardware is the main cost, even if they end up spending a couple of thousand pounds / dollars / euros on sample sets to get their ideal home organ.

Then there are others like me who are more interested in the individual sound of specific historical organs, for instance how does Schnitger compare with Silbermann, and how do North German Baroque organs compare with Central German, or how did the ideas of Cavaille-Coll develop over the course of his career, or which organ is closest to the one that the composer would have written for (early vs. late Buxtehude vs. Bruhns)? We probably end up spending more on sample sets altogether, and continue to do so, but are probably not prepared to pay so much for each of them.

I have no idea which group makes up the bulk of Hauptwerk users, or even if this is a valid way of categorising them.

Then there are some sample sets that stand out from the rest as special in terms of quality of recording, historical importance and how rewarding they are to play, and I have not regretted spending more than I usually would have. Rotterdam Main, St. Bavokerk Haarlem, St Martinikerk Groningen and Caen are examples that immediately spring to mind. But there are others, equally special but much cheaper, that every Hauptwerk user should consider, such as St. Mary-le-Bow.

I am looking forward to seeing where Blackburn Cathedral fits in.
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Andrew Grahame

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Re: Blackburn Cathedral sample set

PostWed Jan 12, 2022 11:29 pm

The cost of sample sets seems to be something of an ongoing issue. As a radio broadcaster with 20 years' experience in audio production I know just how much work goes into making a pre-recorded broadcast. I routinely find that it easily takes 3 to 4 hours to pre-produce a 1-hour broadcast, whereas I could present the same broadcast live in just 1 hour. That's not including preparation time, which is much the same regardless of whether the broadcast is live or pre-produced.

It doesn't take much for me to make the mental leap from radio production to sample set creation. Without having yet created a sample set - though I have no doubt that I have the audio production skills necessary were I to take the time to learn about sample set creation - I well imagine that the amount of work involved is huge.

I also own a large number of sample sets, and have never begrudged the amount I pay to acquire one. Having said that, I often take advantage of early-release special pricing offered by some producers. Some of the sample sets I have were quite expensive. It's my responsibility to check out the demos ahead of time before putting my money down. It's also my responsibility to decide if a particular new release has a place in my collection. I can always choose not to buy. I believe it's up to the producer to decide what they wish to charge - balancing the question of their time and production costs against the marketing factors. Were I to produce my own sample sets I know that I would have a hard time coming up with a price.

I am most interested to learn that the Blackburn organ is being sampled. I first heard of this organ back in the mid 1970's when I purchased an LP featuring Jane Parker-Smith. I seem to recall that this was the first LP recording made on this significant instrument. I wish the producers every success, and look forward to their demos in due course. The price they are quoting at this time isn't small, but when the sample set is released it will be up to me to decide whether or not the expenditure is justified from my perspective in order to obtain this sample set.
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Andrew Grahame

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Re: Blackburn Cathedral sample set

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 5:42 am

This wonderful video, with Dr John Bertalot speaking about the origin of the Walker organ at Blackburn Cathedral, can be found on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIdGJ_mJpWY
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giwro

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Re: Blackburn Cathedral sample set

PostThu Jan 13, 2022 12:54 pm

smfrank wrote:There have been several comments about the high cost.
Since the distribution cost is practically nil, a much lower price might translate into many more sales, and a greater overall profit. I like to support producers and buy lots of sample sets, especially from Evensong. I have over 130 sets. But my largesse has its limits :) Just my 2 cents.
Steve

Just to be clear, we are doing the production of the instrument, but it is sold by Llannerch, so you’d have to express your concerns about pricing to them. As such, I don’t think it’s polite for me to weigh in my opinions about pricing, probably…. At least in this specific case. :lol:

I can tell you that doing noise reduction and sample prep for 3 perspectives in a soaking wet acoustic is (as a friend of mine from Germany says) “a h*ll of work”. Noise reduction is always a delicate balance between removing unwanted sound and not doing too much damage to the sounds you want to preserve. It’s even more so with soaking wet sets, as you are given a third thing to balance damage/preservation, and that is the acoustics. Too fast of a release, you lose the reverb. Too slow? You keep the reverb and a bunch of wind noise. So… where is the sweet spot? Where/when do you choose to do a bit more damage… maybe so you can keep to a more manageable production schedule and get the product out the door so it can make revenue? When keeping track of time and resources, what is an acceptable amount of time and effort spent? How does one balance artistic integrity and making a profit?

For us, we do as little damage as we can and try to balance all of the competing factors and still make some profit. If we do our job well, it means the instrument is a really good facsimile of the real thing (but, it will never be as good as sitting in the room with the real thing, and one has to come to grips with that reality!)
Jonathan Orwig
Coon Rapids, Minnesota USA
http://www.evensongmusic.net
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B777Captain

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Re: Blackburn Cathedral sample set

PostSat Jan 22, 2022 5:59 pm

For those who’ve played this organ or heard it live/in person…. Can I get some opinions of what you thought of its sound, acoustics etc….

Does it have the big Tuba sound of an English Cathedral organ? The youtube I’ve heard has some great acoustics!!!

https://youtu.be/8FQu9xcEcxA

Anyways, thought I’d ask for your own thoughts and opinions on this organ. I’m quite interested in it when it comes out as I love acoustics but the only ones seeming to have for me, at least, are the C.C. Organs which have a particular sound vs the English Organs.

Thanks!

Pat
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Charles Braund

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Re: Blackburn Cathedral sample set

PostSun Jan 23, 2022 1:04 pm

If you look at the specification you will see that it definitely doesn't have a Tuba. The nearest equivalent is the Chamade Imperial Trumpet (now on the Solo but originally on the Positive) but that certainly isn't a Tuba by any stretch of the imagination even when bolstered up by other stops to thicken it. It's just not that sort of organ. If there was a typical Tuba, it just wouldn't fit, just like one wouldn't fit into a Silbermann or Schnitger organ.
You will notice that in each division there is a certain paucity in unison stops and there is not much to provide the fuller sound of a typical English cathedral instrument. For example, there is no 8' diapason /principal sound on the Swell nor any16' flue sound no matter how mild. There is no doubling up of Great Open Diapasons and nothing beyond a single 8' flute on the Positive. This is all very typical of the new instruments of the time which sought to follow a Principal pitch basis for each division ie; an 8' Great, a 4' Swell, and a 16' Pedal etc. It can't be described as werk prinzip because there is no case and it speaks directly into a large acoustic space. Therefore there is no softening of the output which would be more pronounced if there were WP tonal cabinets with front pipe baffles to take the edge off the sound.
It is a direct product of the organ reform movement at its height and is therefore as far removed from any typical English romantic sound as you can get. The flute and principal stops are very chiffy and the reeds relatively thin. in comparison to thicker romantic stops. It does sound a little bit French in parts but it certainly isn't anything like a Cavaille Coll. It also has quite a modern German sound in parts but doesn't have that same harshness, brittle sound and shriek that many German instruments had at the time. In many ways it can be considered to be quite refined.
There are a number of Youtube recordings but the one quoted is probably amongst the worst, providing a very confusing wash of reverberation on rather full registrations. There are better examples to listen to but unfortunately, many of the Youtube recordings consist of modern, rather jarring discordant pieces so they don't generally give a good impression of what the instrument is really like. The acoustics are large but perhaps not quite so large as most of the recordings might imply.
It certainly isn't gentle for the most part and it does provide a very exciting sound. When playing it, it is very tempting to go for large registrations because it sounds so very much alive and sparkling however, much of its beauty lies in the quieter stops and smaller registrations which are rarely demonstrated in the majority of recordings available.
In the empty cathedral it is quite "in yer face" but with a full congregation, it balances very much better and large amounts of people definitely help to moderate the sound of the instrument to a considerable extent.
It has always had a movable console so depending where the console was / is at the time, it gave / gives a different impression to the player. It was rarely positioned in the central position and often sat / sits at one side or another under one of the "cases" thus giving a slightly different perspective and balance each time it is played.
Dr. John Bertalot the organist incumbent when it was built, always asked everyone to refrain from using full organ if possible because it was causing bits of stained glass to fall out of the central lantern "tower" from time to time so you can get some idea of just how powerful the instrument is. That lantern tower is probably the biggest contributor to the large reverberation period and has much in common with the earlier instrument in the Liverpool Met. cathedral which has a similar though very much larger and more pronounced building design. The organ there is also much larger but was built the same firm and also voiced by Dennis Thurlow and Wallter Goody a few years earlier. It has a different though similar open display arrangement and is quite similar in many respects. I think that Blackburn is the nicer organ.
Dennis was going through one of his more extreme phases at the time and like many others, wanted to get as far away from the old style romantic sound as possible. In later years he became much more moderate and restrained. However, he must still be considered to be one of the greatest voicers of the 20th. century.
If you want a typical English cathedral sound then Blackburn really isn't the answer. It just isn't that sort of instrument and has more in common with the earlier Klais or Rieger instruments. Equally it doesn't have quite the developed refinement of more recently built new instruments such as Llandaff, St. Edmundsbury and Worcester where the initial organ reform movement sound has been moderated from some of its extremes.
However, if you want a rather unique and exciting experience then it is quite something and is therefore quite special.
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Re: Blackburn Cathedral sample set

PostSun Jan 23, 2022 1:46 pm

Thank you for that good information, Charles!

Patrick
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Andrew Grahame

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Re: Blackburn Cathedral sample set

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 3:09 am

Just to underline what Charles has said - Blackburn is not a "tuba" organ.

First, have you heard any recordings of the actual organ? This would be a good starting point. There's no doubt that the Blackburn organ is splendid in its own right, but it's very much a product of its time.

If you're looking for the fuller sounds of earlier times in a sample set then there's Salisbury (MDA), Hereford (Lavender Audio) and Peterborough (Audio Angelorum). Or, if you are looking for a top-drawer composite sample set in this style then check out Charles' own website - Silver Octopus Studios. If it's acoustics you want, you can always add more reverb to any sample set using Hauptwerk 6.
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giwro

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Re: Blackburn Cathedral sample set

PostMon Jan 24, 2022 9:45 am

Thanks for weighing in, Charles, Andrew,

No, Blackburn isn’t your traditional British organ at all. :D

It is exciting and “in your face”, but don’t look for a tuba nor a wash of 1st, 2nd, 3rd Diapasons… it’s brilliant, brash and maybe even a bit over the top…

I’m really enjoying the opportunity to hear all of the sounds so closely while doing the production… I can’t wait to get enough of it together that I can play it a bit.
Jonathan Orwig
Coon Rapids, Minnesota USA
http://www.evensongmusic.net

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