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St-Pons Mixtures (maybe some other suggestions)

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mcloney1

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St-Pons Mixtures (maybe some other suggestions)

PostTue Mar 15, 2022 5:37 pm

I am just wondering what some of yall's opinion on this this sort of thing is (maybe some suggestions for Mr. Zurek might end up here, maybe he'll see this)
While I know there are some people here who like these fine tuned mixtures in S.P.'s latest sample sets, I must admit I am not one of them. In some of Mr. Zurek's sample sets, the original mixtures are present and can be used in the sample set, but some sets like St Pons does not (and I know this is the case with a few others I do not have) and I must admit that to me, the sound of the mixtures, especially of the cornets, are quite unnatural sounding. I would suggest to Mr. Zurek to consider for future updates of such sample sets (and for future sets as well), to include the original mixtures. Also I notice on those sample sets that do include the option to use the fine tuned as well as the original mixtures, that there is no option to load or not load either of them. While this is not a major issue I think It would be more convenient in some ways, especially for those like me who are more particular about the RAM usage (though no doubt this will only be a major issue on sample sets that have numerous mixtures), and I doubt many people will be constantly switching between the two. Maybe others here might have an opinion that would justify such a thing. Perhaps if Mr. Zurek happens to see this he might elaborate and clarify any related planned updates etc.
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larason2

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Re: St-Pons Mixtures (maybe some other suggestions)

PostTue Mar 15, 2022 7:00 pm

I’m actually not aware of it saying anywhere that the mixtures weren’t sampled. If the mixtures sound too perfectly tuned to you, this is probably what it actually sounds like on the real organ. French Baroque organs had perfectly tuned mixtures, and this is best appreciated if the organ is tuned to quarter comma meantone or similar. I don’t usually consider the Cornet a mixture, but arguably you could call it that, depending on how you define mixture. The tierce and fifth mutations in a Cornet are also traditionally tuned pure to the perfect thirds and the flat fifths of quarter comma meantone. A lot of older sets have mixtures that are relatively detuned, but for the French Baroque, my opinion is that’s not period appropriate. In any case, it would be very difficult for a sample set producer to include mixtures with any other tuning than that which is found on the actual organ if they are sampled. Maybe you could increase the random detuning?
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mcloney1

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Re: St-Pons Mixtures (maybe some other suggestions)

PostTue Mar 15, 2022 8:11 pm

As per S.P.'s other french baroque sample sets that have the fine tuning option (currently St maximin, and prytanee), The cornets are also processed for fine tuning, I cannot personally believe that the mixtures and cornets in the St pons sample set are the original sounding mixtures, as a cornet (the plein jeux as well, not as bad but still noticeably digital sounding) should not sound like it is digitally synthesized, and I have heard enough real and sampled cornets and mixtures to tell the difference between the original and fine tuned versions and the distortion it imposes on the original. In addition there is a quite natural detuning in any sort of mixture as well as the original (relatively unmodified, discounting isolation and noise reduction as per usual) sample set mixtures, even in French baroque organs. In addition, while not completely related, I do not believe that perfectly and so unnaturally tuning a sample just to artificially detune it later to make it sound more "realistic" is something that should be done, but that is just my opinion.
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mnailor

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Re: St-Pons Mixtures (maybe some other suggestions)

PostTue Mar 15, 2022 9:33 pm

Is the statement here that, when I turn off the new mixture fine tuning option on the upgraded St. Max et al, I'm not playing the original sampled mixtures and cornets as they sounded before the upgrade? I really don't hear that. I doubt that Jiri went back and resampled the organs to support fine tuning years after the recording was done, so it's the same samples, and should be the original relative tuning (intramixture) with fine tuning off.

Is there something written on the SP site that says the mixtures are now different even with the fine tuning option off? Thanks.
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mcloney1

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Re: St-Pons Mixtures (maybe some other suggestions)

PostTue Mar 15, 2022 9:56 pm

mnailor wrote:Is the statement here that, when I turn off the new mixture fine tuning option on the upgraded St. Max et al, I'm not playing the original sampled mixtures and cornets as they sounded before the upgrade? I really don't hear that. I doubt that Jiri went back and resampled the organs to support fine tuning years after the recording was done, so it's the same samples, and should be the original relative tuning (intramixture) with fine tuning off.

Is there something written on the SP site that says the mixtures are now different even with the fine tuning option off? Thanks.


I think its a bug with either HW or Mr. Zurek's definition files that especially if you load a larger instrument or a lot of ranks, the tuning option will bug out and only play the default setting, despite which mixtures are selected. With Caen I had to rename all the samples to get the original mixtures working since the fine tuned mixtures are the default or something in the ODF. I do not get this problem however when I load very few ranks. You would have to do the same to St Maximin to hear the fine tuned mixtures (if you go in the sample set folder, with st maximin the fine tuned samples are appended with _050, in Caen it is the opposite, the originals were appended with _050, and the default samples are the ones without these I am guessing)
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larason2

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Re: St-Pons Mixtures (maybe some other suggestions)

PostTue Mar 15, 2022 10:37 pm

As far as I understand, Jiri went back and processed the original files differently to obtain the "fine tuning" vs. original tuning that is available for some sample sets. However, I don't believe this was done for St. Pons. If it was, you would have the option of original tuning vs. fine tuning. So the sound of the mixtures was produced by taking the original recordings and processing them via denoising, etc. If you don't like how the cornets or mixtures sound, it probably has to do with the denoising process that was used on them - still, they are at least based on the original recording of the mixtures. Every sample set producer follows different processes when denoising, and the results can vary from sample set to sample set even by the same producer.

I have also commented before how in particular mixtures don't sound the same if they are played by themselves vs. when they are recorded with wind consuming stops like the principal chorus at the same time, particularly on Baroque organs. By themselves, they tend to be harsher and have more higher pitched harmonics, and the extent to which this happens varies from organ to organ because of the complexities of the wind system. Other SP sample set users have commented about this for other sample sets, such as the Martinikerk Groningen. To some extent, this can be corrected or improved when adjusting the wind model for these stops via the ODF, but it doesn't look like Jiri does this (apparently preferring that the mixtures sound like they did in the recording).
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bourdon

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Re: St-Pons Mixtures (maybe some other suggestions)

PostWed Mar 16, 2022 5:34 am

--I don't , personaly, find the Fournitures ,Cymbales and tierces or cornet of St Pons "artificial" and , to my ears and memory, they sound , as much as possible,quite near to the original.

--Apart from that , 2 observations/opinions :

- first I don't see the benefit we get from using "pipe coupling" and other "detuning " or "fine tuning" devices : detuning or ultra fine tuning ( which for the latter,is not real life, especially with small mixture pipes) will nether really improve a bad recording and transform harsh, "grinding" , "shrilling" ,unblending mixtures (due to recording, or wind model , etc..,) into the opposite => If there are problems with a recording or sound processing, then , isn't the best solution to go back and record and process again ?! ( in the past, it has been done by at least two sample set producers).

- second observation: I always wonder why for the same sample-set producer , somme organs ( even anciently recorded) sound "well enough"( i.e. : without some of the major flaws above mentioned) and others don't ( especially regarding mixtures and reeds) ?.. Would it be perhaps, because they may have different people or firms working with them , with different skills and techniques ??...

Sorry if these remaks don't seem very precise, but I think preferable for the discussion to stay on a general basis and not start "incriminating" such ou such sample -set, which is not the purpose. Anyway, everyone will certainly have in mind some specific examples !..
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larason2

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Re: St-Pons Mixtures (maybe some other suggestions)

PostWed Mar 16, 2022 7:57 am

Thanks for you observations Bourdon, I think they’re helpful. It wasn’t my intention to incriminate or exonerate Jiri or any other sample set producer. It’s my opinion that sample set preparation is an art, and like every art, the artist has decisions to make as they prepare the sample. Some will agree with the decisions, others will not. Jiri has actually put a lot of work into going back and reprocessing many of his sets to allow listeners with multiple channels to use detuning on their instruments, which I think is laudable. For most users, he will not get paid for this extra work.

It’s possible as well that “fine tuning” or “original tuning” only applies when more than one channel is used. For “original tuning,” the mixtures in one perspective are left as recorded compared to the other perspectives (which will be a bit out of tune because of the transmutations of the sound waves caused by the room). In fine tuning, the program intentionally pulls the mixtures closer in tune to each other in one perspective vs. the other. Again, I don’t think there is a right or wrong, it comes down to user preference, and only applies to owners of a set where this has been enabled and who use more than one channel.

It could be that I’m totally wrong as to how the technology works, and it would be helpful for an actual user of a multichannel set with the pipe coupling features to comment on how the technology actually works if I’ve got it wrong.
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larason2

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Re: St-Pons Mixtures (maybe some other suggestions)

PostWed Mar 16, 2022 8:20 am

Since posting I also thought of two “wild cards” that may be relevant to this discussion.

One is that wind model processing has changed between HWVI and HWVII, and some users have commented that this has affected the mixtures on some of their SP sets.

Another is that when a multi channel recording happens, the pipes in one perspective are sometimes phase shifted compared to the same pipe in the other perspective because of room effects. This is more noticeable at high pitches. When two very similar pitches that are slightly phase shifted are played together, it sounds synthesized. So, if more than one perspective is played simultaneously, it could make it sound synthesized, and you would expect this to be more apparent if a multi channel set is mixed down into stereo.
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bourdon

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Re: St-Pons Mixtures (maybe some other suggestions)

PostWed Mar 16, 2022 10:59 am

Many thanks , larason2, for your further technical and interesting explanations and paths of research ( from which, by the way, I personaly nether understood that you intended especially to support nor criticize anyone in particular , about this larger issue !).

--I only have one stereo output channel , so I can't appreciate the effect of the "pipe coupling"& "detuning" or "fine tuning" devices on a multi- channel equipment.

Anyway, I keep the idea that these devices can perhaps "blurr", mask, some defaults of the sound , but don't realy correct them : the "pipe coupling" has ( at least on my set) the "whining" effect of depressing momentarily the air pressure when attacking a chord ( what some old electronic organs had , under the name of "Hicks" effect), and the detuning gives a sound which ( as in real organs) seems "larger" and more colourful, ...but nethertheless faulse , due to the supplementary harmonics coming from the detuned pipes.

So , when the recording of an organ, or its processing ( denoising, wind modelling, etc..) is , for some stops or all the stops ,more or less "botched" ( as someone said about a set some time ago), I would tend to believe -as I proposed before- that the best thing to do is to make new recordings ans processing , etc..

+ N.B : There is an interesting discussion about all these problems on a dutch forum , with very competent people exchanging ( but a bit difficult to read when you don't speak dutch , (although english and german helps :-) )
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mcloney1

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Re: St-Pons Mixtures (maybe some other suggestions)

PostWed Mar 16, 2022 12:33 pm

larason2 wrote:It’s possible as well that “fine tuning” or “original tuning” only applies when more than one channel is used. For “original tuning,” the mixtures in one perspective are left as recorded compared to the other perspectives (which will be a bit out of tune because of the transmutations of the sound waves caused by the room). In fine tuning, the program intentionally pulls the mixtures closer in tune to each other in one perspective vs. the other. Again, I don’t think there is a right or wrong, it comes down to user preference, and only applies to owners of a set where this has been enabled and who use more than one channel.

If you look at the sample set folder of sets that have both the original and fine tuned mixtures, the fine tuned mixtures are separate files. In st maximin for instance the fine tuned mixtures are appended with _050, the originals are not. In other sample sets, like Caen and prytanee, it is the other way around. the program itself does not modify these (with the exception of the usual wind model, swell box etc.), but is switching between different sample files.
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mcloney1

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Re: St-Pons Mixtures (maybe some other suggestions)

PostWed Mar 16, 2022 2:03 pm

I am quite sure in any case that he (like he did with groningen) fine tuned the mixtures, but did not include the original.

If we look at St maximin and Prytanee, both of which have the fine tuned mixtures, and the original, we can compare the waveform of in the case a cornet.
Take for example one from prytanee (original) (hopefully i don't bungle the images up)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/kM9U8P58ewqs9rg6A
and the fine tuned
https://photos.app.goo.gl/gnh2XsyL9yiYtWmS8

And now with St maximin
original
https://photos.app.goo.gl/TCohChqV2tiwDdRV6

fine tuned
https://photos.app.goo.gl/MrEjmVi3eCF4DxVz6

and now st pons recit cornet
https://photos.app.goo.gl/2cUGv2HTvxrHRcvRA

so i'm quite sure that it is fine tuned.
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larason2

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Re: St-Pons Mixtures (maybe some other suggestions)

PostWed Mar 16, 2022 5:53 pm

That’s interesting. I agree with you the waveform of the St. Pons Cornet does not look normal! (Nor do any of the “fine tuned” waveforms for that matter). The good news is that it probably has to do with post processing after the sampling. No waveform will ever look like that after sampling! If I was a St. Pons owner, I would write Jiri an email requesting non fine tuned mixtures for St. Pons. He must have been experimenting with that when he produced the sample set.
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mcloney1

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Re: St-Pons Mixtures (maybe some other suggestions)

PostWed Mar 16, 2022 6:51 pm

larason2 wrote:That’s interesting. I agree with you the waveform of the St. Pons Cornet does not look normal! (Nor do any of the “fine tuned” waveforms for that matter). The good news is that it probably has to do with post processing after the sampling. No waveform will ever look like that after sampling! If I was a St. Pons owner, I would write Jiri an email requesting non fine tuned mixtures for St. Pons. He must have been experimenting with that when he produced the sample set.

I know someone who asked him about the Groningen mixtures, and its a similar situation. He wasn't planning on including the original mixtures since to him they sounded better and there was no need to include the originals, but I guess we all have our own preferences, and to each his own. Of course as the sample set producer, he gets to decide these sort of things, but either way, do I hope he'll consider an update including the originals. St Pons (and I'm sure Groningen too, but I don't have it) Is for the most part a really good sample set, and would not mind it at all really if Mr. Zurek includes fine tuned mixtures, but I do have gripes with being able to use only fine tuned mixtures, and I personally don't use St pons as much as I would like because of that (That's why I didn't use the updated Caen almost at all until I figured out the bug with the fine tuning selector and redid all the file names to make it work). I guess I'll wait and see what other people think about this before I ask him him about it. (unless he's already seen this).
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larason2

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Re: St-Pons Mixtures (maybe some other suggestions)

PostWed Mar 16, 2022 9:02 pm

I seem to recall reading about this regarding Groningen, and I think it is too bad. I have also had a request like this refused by Jiri. I’ve had other sample set producers offer to make changes like this, and I think that is a better way to go. We can’t force him to accommodate customers in this way, but we can vote with our wallets! For almost every genre of organ offered by SP, there are alternatives by other companies available. I guess that’s why you should thoroughly audition an organ before buying!
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