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Bückeburg Free Sample Set - Sonus Paradisi

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Romanos

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Re: Bückeburg Free Sample Set - Sonus Paradisi

PostMon May 02, 2022 9:00 am

david515mi wrote:Jiri, in what temperament is this organ tuned? Some variety of well-temperament, I think.

From the information on the SP website:
The temperament is slightly inequal. Measuring the temperament from the recorded audio does not always give exact results, but we found it similar to the Pythagorei 6-th split temperament, also known as Young II.
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Stbees

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Re: Bückeburg Free Sample Set - Sonus Paradisi

PostMon May 02, 2022 12:14 pm

This sampleset is beautiful right "out of the box." I was leery about another neo-baroque set, but this has gravitas as well as clarity. Couple the 8' flutes together (especially with the Doppelfloete) for a lovely, warm sound. Thanks for the wonderful gift of this instrument...many thanks.

Now, for upcoming instruments: how about the Angster (POM) organ in the Cathedral of Subotica (Szabadka) :D
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sschaub

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Re: Bückeburg Free Sample Set - Sonus Paradisi

PostTue May 03, 2022 9:24 pm

Jiri,

Thank you so much for sharing this set with the Hauptwerk community. I have tried various baroque sample sets over the years and have never felt that I could justify the $$ because I don't play much baroque literature. The free sets I tried all had various limitations or deficiencies. This one has beautiful artwork and is up to your very high professional standards in every way. The sound is clear and I am thoroughly enjoying experimenting with it.

For those with limited RAM who might be wondering if it is worth a try, I experimented with the following low-memory configuration: Loading the non-tremulant diffuse ranks only, single loops, in 16-bit, yielded a Hauptwerk memory usage of 6560 MB. Adding selected tremulant ranks increased the memory requirement to 7560 MB. I found the diffuse ranks very satisfying acoustically, with plenty of character of the room. So, users with just 12 GB RAM should be able to experiment with this set if they are careful about the options they choose for loading.

Gratefully,
Stephen
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einer_von_weitem

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Re: Bückeburg Free Sample Set - Sonus Paradisi

PostSat May 14, 2022 3:43 pm

sschaub wrote:Jiri,

For those with limited RAM who might be wondering if it is worth a try, I experimented with the following low-memory configuration: Loading the non-tremulant diffuse ranks only, single loops, in 16-bit, yielded a Hauptwerk memory usage of 6560 MB. Adding selected tremulant ranks increased the memory requirement to 7560 MB. I found the diffuse ranks very satisfying acoustically, with plenty of character of the room. So, users with just 12 GB RAM should be able to experiment


This may be so -- but why would I want to load an organ in such low quality? I gave up on this instrument and deleted it, after spending hours (well, mostly the computer did -- each time the instrument took an eternity to cache) trying to fit something adequate into to my 24GB RAM. The last attempt was with diffuse ranks only, in 16 bit, without the tremmed ranks, but with multiple loops. (I NEVER loaded an organ in 16 bit before, and I wasn't going to do that AND opt for single loops.) No deal.

Now I have plenty of organs, not a few larger than this one and indeed even from Sonus paradisi (albeit a bit older) that sound just SPLENDID with much less than 24GB RAM.

I then installed the new Maihingen organ from Pipeloops. Much less data to download, and unlike the Bückeburg organ it cached very quickly. (Yes, the real organ is half the size of Bückeburg -- but even factoring that in the Bückeburg sample set is a behemoth and the Maihingen one rather svelte.) I tried the organ... and was totally mesmerised by the beauty of the sound.

To my mind there is something wrong here. Where does all the RAM go? Shouldn't it be a consideration even for sample set producers to keep RAM usage as well as the space an instrument needs on the hard disk as low as possible? Because that will increase the number of potential customers. I am not convinced the extra RAM needed by sample sets like Bückeburg translates into better sound -- though in this case I was prevented from finding out.
My Hauptwerk recordings on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJu6YY ... XMA/videos
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seh52

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Re: Bückeburg Free Sample Set - Sonus Paradisi

PostSun May 15, 2022 12:14 am

My old i7 system is maxed out at 24 GB RAM, too.

I was able to load direct and diffuse free samples at 20 bit stereo with artificial trem, and rear surround samples in 16 bit
mono. This installation leaves 3 GB free RAM and sounds good at my place!

The direct samples add clarity and presence, so I wish that I had enough free RAM to buy and install them, but I don't.

I'm grateful for the free demo organ!
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einer_von_weitem

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Re: Bückeburg Free Sample Set - Sonus Paradisi

PostSun May 15, 2022 1:45 am

seh52 wrote:My old i7 system is maxed out at 24 GB RAM, too.

I was able to load direct and diffuse free samples at 20 bit stereo with artificial trem, and rear surround samples in 16 bit
mono. This installation leaves 3 GB free RAM and sounds good at my place!


I'm puzzled! I use Windows 7.
My Hauptwerk recordings on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJu6YY ... XMA/videos
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marcus.reeves

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Re: Bückeburg Free Sample Set - Sonus Paradisi

PostSun May 15, 2022 2:19 am

einer_von_weitem wrote:This may be so -- but why would I want to load an organ in such low quality? I gave up on this instrument and deleted it, after spending hours (well, mostly the computer did -- each time the instrument took an eternity to cache) trying to fit something adequate into to my 24GB RAM. The last attempt was with diffuse ranks only, in 16 bit, without the tremmed ranks, but with multiple loops. (I NEVER loaded an organ in 16 bit before, and I wasn't going to do that AND opt for single loops.) No deal.

Now I have plenty of organs, not a few larger than this one and indeed even from Sonus paradisi (albeit a bit older) that sound just SPLENDID with much less than 24GB RAM.

I then installed the new Maihingen organ from Pipeloops. Much less data to download, and unlike the Bückeburg organ it cached very quickly. (Yes, the real organ is half the size of Bückeburg -- but even factoring that in the Bückeburg sample set is a behemoth and the Maihingen one rather svelte.) I tried the organ... and was totally mesmerised by the beauty of the sound.

To my mind there is something wrong here. Where does all the RAM go? Shouldn't it be a consideration even for sample set producers to keep RAM usage as well as the space an instrument needs on the hard disk as low as possible? Because that will increase the number of potential customers. I am not convinced the extra RAM needed by sample sets like Bückeburg translates into better sound -- though in this case I was prevented from finding out.


There are some fundamental differences between these two organs which probably goes some way to explaining the RAM usage:

Bückeburg: 37 manual ranks + another 37 tremmed ranks + 10 pedal ranks x 3 perspectives = 252 recorded ranks
Maihingen: 22 ranks (no tremulant) x 2 perspectives = 44 recorded ranks

The Maihingen organ has a 47 key compass whereas Bückeburg has 56 extended to 60. I’m not sure if Maihingen is extended but those extra notes will make a big difference in the number of samples needed to reproduce the instrument. Bückeburg has an extra 13(?) notes in the pedal. Then there is the length of the recorded samples as well, which will be affected by the church’s reverb. I’m no mathematician, but I think if you break that down into the RAM used by a single note in a single perspective, then Bückeburg is actually the more svelte of the two.
Last edited by marcus.reeves on Sun May 15, 2022 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Best wishes,
Marcus
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vpo-organist

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Re: Bückeburg Free Sample Set - Sonus Paradisi

PostSun May 15, 2022 6:37 am

It should be clear that each perspective goes significantly on the memory. A simplified calculation looks like this:
Front perspective = 1 GB
+ Diffuse perspective = 1 GB
+ Rear perspective = 1 GB
------
= 3 GB
======

For each register with tremulant, the amount for one register doubles.

If memory is scarce, you can proceed as follows:
  • omit one or more perspectives (do not load)
  • load a relatively dry perspective (front) in 16-bit
  • load several pedal registers in 16-bit only
  • load only one loop
  • do not load tremulant registers (you can use the virtual tremulant)
  • load all registers in 16-bit

You may have to do without rear, although I have found that even a slightly mixed rear signal increases the sound volume and opens up the room.

If the above measures are not sufficient, then in case of hardship you can use only the front channels and shorten the reverb tails and supplement them with IR. However, I have made the experience that if you use a foreign IR, then you remove the "soul" of the organ, because the organ was intonated to the room and only sounds optimal with the original acoustics. This does not apply to relatively dry samplesets, where you can best take advantage of an IR.

This is a pain in the ass trial and error, but HW unfortunately doesn't offer memory calculation in advance.

With my 64 GB I sometimes have to apply some of the points too, but that's only the case with very large sets.
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seh52

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Re: Bückeburg Free Sample Set - Sonus Paradisi

PostSun May 15, 2022 11:07 am

einer_von_weitem wrote:
seh52 wrote:My old i7 system is maxed out at 24 GB RAM, too.

I was able to load direct and diffuse free samples at 20 bit stereo with artificial trem, and rear surround samples in 16 bit
mono. This installation leaves 3 GB free RAM and sounds good at my place!


I'm puzzled! I use Windows 7.



I upgraded Windows 7 to 10, but that would make no difference in this issue.
My processor is i7.
Loading rear surround samples in 16 bit mono with artificial trem adds some reverb without taking much RAM.
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JulianMoney-Kyrle

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Re: Bückeburg Free Sample Set - Sonus Paradisi

PostSun May 15, 2022 7:33 pm

Einer von Weitim,

I can understand your frustration. However, for those of use with multichannel systems, generous amounts of RAM and fast processors capable of achieving adequate polyphony, 4-, 6- and 8-channel surround and variable perspective are a good reason to buy new sample sets as these features do increase the sense of realism. It is a fact of life that as hardware increases in capability, software will be released to take advantage of it, though if you are happy with what you already have then there is no reason to upgrade.

HW is very flexible inasmuch as there are many ways of reducing the RAM required to load a sample set without necessarily ruining how it sounds, but if you want to enjoy the newer releases to their full potential then there is no substitute for a recent, capable and (unfortunately) expensive computer, as well as to run HW7 which as well as using a better sound engine than previous versions has the option to improve the sound still further by choosing several signal processing options (on an organ-by-organ basis) such as higher bit-rate and better pitch-shifting, at the expense of polyphony if your processor isn't up to the mark.

Most of the best recent sample sets are also the most expensive, though Jiri at Sonus Paradisi has a policy of offering some at a substantially lower price, presumably targeting a different share of the market. For somebody wanting to have a fairly large library of sample sets, rather than just a few representing a range of genres, the software ends up costing a great deal more than the hardware, so upgrading the computer is an easy decision.

The recent free offering of Buckeburg is very generous indeed as it is very well recorded and an unusual type of organ. It sounds fantastic with my system, though I am now faced with the prospect of having to get a larger SSD if I want to add any more sample sets to my system.

Is 24 Gb the maximum that your motherboard will take? If not, and you are happy with the CPU and hard drive capabilities, it might be worth looking into upgrading just the RAM. It is very straightforward to do, and the older, slower RAM that matches your computer is certainly cheaper than the current faster generation.

IF you do consider changing your computer, you can sometimes get powerful second-hand workstations from businesses that are upgrading (designed for engineers etc.), and if you are lucky, for very little money.
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einer_von_weitem

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Re: Bückeburg Free Sample Set - Sonus Paradisi

PostMon May 16, 2022 8:35 am

If memory is scarce, you can proceed as follows:
omit one or more perspectives (do not load)
load a relatively dry perspective (front) in 16-bit
load several pedal registers in 16-bit only
load only one loop
do not load tremulant registers (you can use the virtual tremulant)
load all registers in 16-bit


I know I can do this. But the point is: why would I accept all these reductions in quality if I can simply choose a different sample set (I can even think of comparable ones that are also free) that will happily load in full quality within my 24GB RAM? 24GB is actually a lot, even today (and that is even more true outside the Hauptwerk world).

It may be the case (and has often been said) that as computer memory becomes cheaper we need to accept that we need to use more of it. But it has to be worth it, rather than being done (or simply allowed) for the sake of it. I remain somewhat doubtful if greater memory requirements automatically translate into better quality or more realism; and if so whether the improvement is more than marginal and thus really worth the investment and added cumbersomeness.

In general it seems to me that Sonus Paradisi, while certainly providing top quality, is also among those sample set producers using the most RAM. I think that producers like OAM, Pipeloops or Prospectum make do with rather less? How do they do it? I cannot see that their quality is inferior?
My Hauptwerk recordings on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJu6YY ... XMA/videos
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Re: Bückeburg Free Sample Set - Sonus Paradisi

PostMon May 16, 2022 9:53 am

A few years ago, I asked Prof Maier why some of the OAM sample sets used less RAM than sample sets from similar instruments, in similar acoustics, produced by other suppliers. His reply suggested that by carrying out more work on the wav files (such as how loops were selected, loop length, number of loops etc.) OAM was able to produce excellent quality sound from smaller wav files.

As I have not seriously tried to create wav files for use by HW, I can't really comment beyond repeating this. Perhaps some of the sample set producers my be able to comment?

There is no doubt as computer RAM has become less expensive and more plentiful, software of ALL types has become rather larger. The days of spending many hours working on code (and data) to fit into computers with very little RAM have gone - it is often no longer cost effective.

(The first program I used which played "music" ran on a machine with six 8 word blocks (39 bit) of main store and 8K words of drum storage. The music was played on the machine's "hooter" circuit...)

Iain
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Re: Bückeburg Free Sample Set - Sonus Paradisi

PostMon May 16, 2022 11:06 am

It’s true that RAM requirements for a basic rank vary among sample set producers, but my opinion is that less RAM is not always better. I’m pretty sure the main reason is how long the main loop is allowed to be. Producers that make sets that use more RAM like Sonus Paradisi, Inspired Acoustics, or Piotr Grabowski’s recent sets have long main sample loops, and if you hold the note for long enough, you can hear some subtle variation in the tone over a long key press that can’t be accounted for by the wind model. Is this worth the extra RAM consumed? For me there has to be a balance. Too short and you lose interest, too long and you take up too much RAM. The difference is so subtle though, you wonder if the extra RAM usage is justified, but this is the province of the sample set producers, and I don’t think they’re going to change their mind.

My opinion is that OAM uses shorter main loops than the competition mentioned above. I’m sure they spend more time on denoising than the competitors, but I’m not sure that makes a big difference (though it must contribute something). I don’t think their main sample loops are too short though, again it’s very hard to tell how long that loop is when you hear the sound. There aren’t many sets that I would consider over processed, and most of them are from Hauptwerk’s early years (except for some of SP’s recent mixture experiments). In general though, there has been a recent trend towards less processed sound, which I think has made many newer organs more realistic (mostly sounding more spacious). I still play golden oldies like the St. Georgenkirche though! So there are a lot of subjective and objective parts to this. Don’t forget that fancy features like crescendo pedals, divisional pistons and perspective mixers also add to RAM consumption! Probably the worst offender in this regard is IA. But on the other hand having all those features is useful!
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Re: Bückeburg Free Sample Set - Sonus Paradisi

PostMon May 16, 2022 3:03 pm

IainStinson wrote:A few years ago, I asked Prof Maier why some of the OAM sample sets used less RAM than sample sets from similar instruments, in similar acoustics, produced by other suppliers. His reply suggested that by carrying out more work on the wav files (such as how loops were selected, loop length, number of loops etc.) OAM was able to produce excellent quality sound from smaller wav files.

If the WAV files are very large, e.g. 10 seconds, then it is easier to process the loops because you have more "material" available. The disadvantage is the high space and memory requirement.
If you use rather small WAV files, e.g. 5 seconds, then it will be more difficult to find loop points. The advantage is, as known, smaller files, which save space and RAM.
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Re: Bückeburg Free Sample Set - Sonus Paradisi

PostTue May 17, 2022 8:01 am

24GB is actually a lot, even today

I simply have to disagree here. I only recently upgraded computers and my last HW computer had 32gb ram. For nine years I was acutely aware of the fact that there were MANY samplesets that I couldn't load in full (some of them, for even a single perspective). 24gb is not a lot of ram where HW is concerned. Yes, there are many instruments that fit within that amount of ram, but there are just as many (if not more) that do not. Hauptwerk computing needs are atypical—to say the least—and it is what it is. There are other competing software options that are now coming to market if you feel the need to limit your ram.
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