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OLMC Skinner V2 - patiently waiting

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magnaton

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OLMC Skinner V2 - patiently waiting

PostMon Oct 03, 2022 2:52 pm

I was speaking with some Hauptwerk colleagues last week and a new prospect this weekend. The subject of having a sample set of an untouched or unmodified E. M. Skinner came up in both disparate conversations. Granted there have been some recent releases of Skinner organs but to have a set of one that is still intact as originally installed would be great.

So that brings me to the question . . . will we ever see an upgraded, multi-release version of the Mount Carmel Skinner as mentioned here in this posting?
http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=15812&p=118696#p118696

It's been 5 years since I read this post and have never asked for an update until now.

I feel this is a missed market opportunity for MDA.

Danny B.
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voet

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Re: OLMC Skinner V2 - patiently waiting

PostTue Oct 04, 2022 10:14 am

I also feel there is a need for a pristine E. M. Skinner organ. I have purchased several Skinner Hauptwerk sample sets, and have generally found them to be disappointing. Personally, I think there are other Skinner's that would be better than Mt. Carmel. The holy grail would be the organ he built for Yale University - Woolsey Hall, which many consider to be the finest symphonic organ in the world. However, there are other candidates as well. St. Luke's, Evanston would be an excellent choice. I am sure that there are additional candidates that I am unaware of. To me the criteria that should be 1. an instrument that has not been altered, 2. an instrument that has many of his signature stops.
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Re: OLMC Skinner V2 - patiently waiting

PostTue Oct 04, 2022 12:03 pm

voet wrote:I also feel there is a need for a pristine E. M. Skinner organ. I have purchased several Skinner Hauptwerk sample sets, and have generally found them to be disappointing. Personally, I think there are other Skinner's that would be better than Mt. Carmel. The holy grail would be the organ he built for Yale University - Woolsey Hall, which many consider to be the finest symphonic organ in the world. However, there are other candidates as well. St. Luke's, Evanston would be an excellent choice. I am sure that there are additional candidates that I am unaware of. To me the criteria that should be 1. an instrument that has not been altered, 2. an instrument that has many of his signature stops.


Another one right on the other side of your state: Jefferson Ave. Presbyterian in Detroit. It’s good-sized, and kept in good condition. I’ve subbed there from time to time, and it’s jaw-droppingly fine.
Regarding sample sets, I’m quite happy with Immanuel Presbyterian, L.A., though there are a few stops that were added over the years. -David
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voet

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Re: OLMC Skinner V2 - patiently waiting

PostTue Oct 04, 2022 5:22 pm

Another one right on the other side of your state: Jefferson Ave. Presbyterian in Detroit. It’s good-sized, and kept in good condition. I’ve subbed there from time to time, and it’s jaw-droppingly fine.
Regarding sample sets, I’m quite happy with Immanuel Presbyterian, L.A., though there are a few stops that were added over the years. -David


Thank you, David, I had forgotten about Jefferson Ave. It is an excellent candidate. I have the Immanuel Presbyterian sample set. I agree with you that it is the best of the currently available lot. However, it was not in the greatest shape when it was recorded and I, for one, would like a better example.
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Re: OLMC Skinner V2 - patiently waiting

PostWed Oct 05, 2022 10:15 am

Hey Danny,

One would think with the plethora of instruments now available to us that by now there would be at least one example of a Skinner as you describe, especially given the fact that the Skinners are amongst the most talked about and highly regarded instruments out there. You'd think someone would jump on it and get us a set and I'd think it would be a big seller. As we know there are some Skinner sets now available that sound quite good and I do appreciate the efforts a few of the sample set producers have done to bring us some of these sets, but this topic of an original Skinner has been talked about endlessly for years and for the most part has fallen on deaf ears. I don't know if it's been a situation where gaining access to these instruments is just too difficult or what the deal is. There's plenty of them out there and I know of a couple right here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul area that would make awesome sample sets.

Marc
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giwro

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Re: OLMC Skinner V2 - patiently waiting

PostWed Oct 05, 2022 12:06 pm

There’s actually a mid-1930’s Aeolian-Skinner here in the Twin Cities at Northrop Auditorium that sounds much more like an EM skinner than an AS…

It was recently restored, and is in pristine condition… while a few additions were made, they were made by AS, not other builders, and all early on (before 1940]

Now that the contract is signed, and sampling has started, I can share that it will be available for HW at some point.

:D
Jonathan Orwig
Coon Rapids, Minnesota USA
http://www.evensongmusic.net
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Re: OLMC Skinner V2 - patiently waiting

PostWed Oct 05, 2022 12:14 pm

giwro wrote:...mid-1930’s Aeolian-Skinner ...... Northrop Auditorium
<snip>
I can share that it will be available for HW at some point.


SIGN ME UP!!!!!!!!

Steve
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giwro

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Re: OLMC Skinner V2 - patiently waiting

PostWed Oct 05, 2022 12:29 pm

smfrank wrote:
giwro wrote:...mid-1930’s Aeolian-Skinner ...... Northrop Auditorium
<snip>
I can share that it will be available for HW at some point.


SIGN ME UP!!!!!!!!

Steve


Haha.

Excuse the slips… I set up my little Tascam portable and recorded this on one of my visits:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LF7kdt ... p=drivesdk

Strings:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wc6wxj ... p=drivesdk

French Horn:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Pu3ON2 ... p=drivesdk

Do bear in mind this is simply a quick-and-dirty recording… using the onboard mics of the Tascam, so it’s not as clean as my pro mics, nor does it go down to the low frequencies as well as those do.
Jonathan Orwig
Coon Rapids, Minnesota USA
http://www.evensongmusic.net
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voet

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Re: OLMC Skinner V2 - patiently waiting

PostWed Oct 05, 2022 3:42 pm

1961TC4ME wrote:One would think with the plethora of instruments now available to us that by now there would be at least one example of a Skinner as you describe...but this topic of an original Skinner has been talked about endlessly for years and for the most part has fallen on deaf ears.

Marc


Marc, you have eloquently expressed my frustration. I have three E. M. Skinner sample sets in my collection, but I am still looking for a large, virtually unaltered, E. M. Skinner from the 20s to add to my collection.

I do not know why Skinner afficionados not been heard, but I can think of one factor: many organists confuse E. M. Skinner and Aeolian-Skinner, including, it would seem, some sample set producers. While that latter company emerged from the former, the two firms had very different tonal ideals. Both companies are important in the history of American organ building, and both built some outstanding instruments. However, to suggest that a 1936 Aeolian-Skinner sounds “much more like an EM skinner than an AS” ignores the fact that the scales were narrower in an AS that EM would have used; their mixtures were configured differently; AS used many more mutations than Skinner; Skinner generally used higher wind pressures.

This does not disparage the Northrop instrument in any way. It looks like a worthy addition to the Hauptwerk family, but it is an early Aeolian-Skinner—not an E.M. Skinner.
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giwro

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Re: OLMC Skinner V2 - patiently waiting

PostWed Oct 05, 2022 4:18 pm

voet wrote:
1961TC4ME wrote:One would think with the plethora of instruments now available to us that by now there would be at least one example of a Skinner as you describe...but this topic of an original Skinner has been talked about endlessly for years and for the most part has fallen on deaf ears.

Marc


Marc, you have eloquently expressed my frustration. I have three E. M. Skinner sample sets in my collection, but I am still looking for a large, virtually unaltered, E. M. Skinner from the 20s to add to my collection.

I do not know why Skinner afficionados not been heard, but I can think of one factor: many organists confuse E. M. Skinner and Aeolian-Skinner, including, it would seem, some sample set producers. While that latter company emerged from the former, the two firms had very different tonal ideals. Both companies are important in the history of American organ building, and both built some outstanding instruments. However, to suggest that a 1936 Aeolian-Skinner sounds “much more like an EM skinner than an AS” ignores the fact that the scales were narrower in an AS that EM would have used; their mixtures were configured differently; AS used many more mutations than Skinner; Skinner generally used higher wind pressures.

This does not disparage the Northrop instrument in any way. It looks like a worthy addition to the Hauptwerk family, but it is an early Aeolian-Skinner—not an E.M. Skinner.



Well, IMHO it sounds much more like an EM Skinner…. It was built before Harrison had as much influence, and so still retains a lot of the EMS character…. It has a 1st, 2nd and 3rd Diapason on the GT as well as a 2 octave 4’s…

No, it’s not an EMS, I’ll grant you that. But, neither does it sound like a 1950-1970 AS.

In the end, each person would need to play it and come up with their own opinion, I think (and you are certainly entitled to yours, for sure!)
Jonathan Orwig
Coon Rapids, Minnesota USA
http://www.evensongmusic.net
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voet

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Re: OLMC Skinner V2 - patiently waiting

PostWed Oct 05, 2022 6:35 pm

giwro wrote:Well, IMHO it sounds much more like an EM Skinner…. It was built before Harrison had as much influence, and so still retains a lot of the EMS character…. It has a 1st, 2nd and 3rd Diapason on the GT as well as a 2 octave 4’s…

No, it’s not an EMS, I’ll grant you that. But, neither does it sound like a 1950-1970 AS.

Jonathan, my comments in no way disparage a significant Aeolian-Skinner organ. I admire instruments from both builders.

G. Donald Harrison joined the Skinner firm in July 1927 and E. M. Skinner was out by 1933. While there may be similar
stop nomenclature, and to your ears it may sound like the work of E. M. Skinner, by 1936 Aeolian-Skinners bore the tonal DNA of G. Donald Harrison.

No, it does not sound like an AS from 1950-1970, the period of Joseph S. Whiteford who joined the firm in 1948. That was another distinguished period in their history.

One of the joys of Hauptwerk is having the opportunity to enjoy different organs, from different periods of history, by distinguished builders, in different styles. There is a place for both E. M. Skinner and Aeolian-Skinner in the Hauptwerk family. I am happy to see that you will soon make another Aeolian-Skinner available. And I still hope that someone will offer one of the premiere unaltered instruments of E. M. Skinner.
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Re: OLMC Skinner V2 - patiently waiting

PostThu Oct 06, 2022 8:09 pm

I would love to have an authentic Skinner as well, preferably one of his instruments large enough to have a 16' Diapason in the Great.

I agree with the sentiment shared in this thread. Aeolian-Skinner is not the same as Skinner. It would be nice to have a good sized Skinner that is as close to authentic as possible. I also think more organists and sample set producers need to learn to distinguish between A-S and S.
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Re: OLMC Skinner V2 - patiently waiting

PostFri Oct 07, 2022 11:00 am

TubaFan wrote:I would love to have an authentic Skinner as well, preferably one of his instruments large enough to have a 16' Diapason in the Great.

Again, Mount Carmel Skinner! What an excellent specification!

Imagine you were attending a wedding for a close relative. You arrive early and the Bride's mom is in a panic as something happened and the organist had to bail. You get tapped on the shoulder to fill in and do the best you can on extreme short notice. Walk up to the choir loft and see an organ with these features:
- Flute & Flute Celeste
- String & String Celeste
- Harp (which adds nicely to Pacabel's Canon)
- Solo Flute 4' (Triangle)
- Clarinet for solo lines
- Carillon (this is a wedding)
- Trumpet En Chamade
- Solo Tuba (cool, you get a choice of party horns)
- Skinner French Horn (the one and only)
- 32' Flue
- 32' Reed
- Great Diapason Chorus
- Swell Diapason Chorus
- Plethora of couplers including a Unison Off for each manual.

Remember this is sight-on-seen. You don't have a massive stop count to try and hunt your way through nor do you have just a few basic stops with one reed and one 16.

So you do great job of filling in at the last moment. You get several well deserved compliments. Admittedly, you can't say
I wish the organ would have had an "X" so I could have done justice to "Y". :-)

It is this organ that sold me on Hauptwerk! I played it for an hour in a stereo setup with 3-way speakers. I appreciate the suggestions of other fine unaltered Skinner organs that would be good candidates. According to the link I provided in my original post, MDA already has the raw materials (new multi-release recordings in surround) sitting on a shelf for this one! Hopefully someone at MDA will see this post and offer a response to if or when we will see an updated version. I know of several folks including myself who would be willing to pre-purchase this set to get it going.

Danny B.
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Re: OLMC Skinner V2 - patiently waiting

PostFri Oct 07, 2022 2:17 pm

There is the 1927 E.M. Skinner sanctuary organ at the Cathedral of St. Paul in St. Paul, MN which was the original instrument installed there. It's a smaller organ with I think 30 some stops, 38 if I recall, which would be a nice smaller EM Skinner to have and it's in an awesome acoustic. I've heard it in person a few times and it's very nice. The problem there is getting the folks from the Cathedral off the dime and giving you the OK to sample which is the equivalent of pulling teeth! :mrgreen:

Jonathan, if you have the Northrop instrument in the works, that would be an awesome set and I'll probably sign up for that one.

Marc
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Re: OLMC Skinner V2 - patiently waiting

PostFri Oct 07, 2022 4:09 pm

Those strings sound GOOD!!!
I'll definitely try it out.
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