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Maihingen organ by Prospectum (not a typo!)

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adri

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Maihingen organ by Prospectum (not a typo!)

PostSat Nov 12, 2022 4:45 pm

This organ, already sampled by Pipeloops, has also been sampled by Prospectum!

Details here:

https://prospectum.com/index.php?lang=en&id1=2&id2=202201
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larason2

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Re: Maihingen organ by Prospectum (not a typo!)

PostSat Nov 12, 2022 7:23 pm

Very interesting! Maihingen has quickly become one of my favourite organs (By Pipeloops, however!). I generally only play it with a Silbermann temperament I got with another organ, which fits it pretty well. I find it particulary good for Bach's trio Sonaten. The Prospectum set sounds good, but it doesn't sound better enough to buy it all over again. I think the pipeloops set has just the right amount of reverb for me anyway. I'm very surprised this happened though! I don't know of any other organ that has been sampled twice! Because the Pipeloops was such a quality set though, I think it's Prospectum that's going to lose out. Most of us that would be interested already have it. Sorry Prospectum! You have a good organ there though!
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CyrilCouten

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Re: Maihingen organ by Prospectum (not a typo!)

PostSun Nov 13, 2022 3:16 am

It would be very interesting to have the same pieces played on both samples to make a comparison.
Not to mention also on the actual organ (which unfortunately is never done ! ).
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DomD

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Re: Maihingen organ by Prospectum (not a typo!)

PostSun Nov 13, 2022 6:20 am

I bought the Pipeloops Sset when it was published. It's a very good sample and I recorded (and uploaded on CCH) a lot of works with it (Krieger, Bavarian Pastorals...) As I'm a good friend of Gernot W (Prospectum producer) he talled me about his project and asked me to test this sample. It was realy a very good surprise. I recorded (and cmorgel too) some demos with the so called "Unpublished beta version" at different times of its development. Imho, both versions are excellent and I'll continue to use them both because this organ is a must. It's a chance for me to own both. But I can't decide for future purchasers. Prospectum version has more possibilities and settings and sounds more natural. Pipeloops version has an excellent wind model. The new process developped by Prospectum is realy a great evolution in Sset production. (just go to the Prospectum page to have more informations).
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mweyand

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Re: Maihingen organ by Prospectum (not a typo!)

PostSun Nov 13, 2022 7:56 pm

To be honest - and strictly my opinion: The IR reverb doesn't sound as natural at all as the real reverb. On headphones in direct comparison with the Pipeloops set, I am much more convinced of the latter in terms of realism.

I also partially read Gernot's 3-part series of articles published in OKEY magazine. The difference between those and this sample set though is that the artifical IR reverb is rendered into the samples, so one of the big advantages he points out in the articles - that is: a lot less RAM usage than a "conventional" sample set - would not apply here. If you'd ask me: These days, processing power and memory are no constraints anymore, so who cares anyway.

Regarding the aspect of conserving and documenting such instruments, it doesn't make great sense to me to capture only dry samples and consciously not record the real reverb which is a major part of the total work of art that is made up of the organ and the room it is located in.

Imagine you'd record an orchestra and therefore dry-record every single instrument (maybe by multi-tracking, just for maximum channel separation) and then apply an artificial IR reverb of the concert hall. Nobody would believe that this would sound exactly as realistic as if the orchestra was recorded as a whole (wet) in that concert hall, right? The orchestra sound as well as the organ sound needs to develop by travelling through the room over distance to your ear or microphone respectively. With dry samples as the only truly captured source, you will probably lose on this major aspect.

And please: Nothing beats recorded real tremulants!

So, what remains of the revolutionary new methodology? Agreed, it needs less denoising but I am not quite sure if you could do without any denoising at all as there still should be some blower noise on the dry samples that would add up through polyphony. Ok, signal to (blower-)noise ratio would be a lot better on dry recordings. But: using current state-of-the-art denoising technology in a cautious and skilled manner will almost completely preserve the original spectrum of the recording and create almost no artifacts if done the right way.

Best
Markus
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larason2

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Re: Maihingen organ by Prospectum (not a typo!)

PostSun Nov 13, 2022 10:17 pm

I actually quite agree Markus, though the main problem I have with most samples played with IR's is that the voicing of the rank doesn't usually match the IR. As a result, I'll play the organ for a bit, until I reach a stop or part of the compass that isn't voiced right, then turn off the IR! The new prospectum set isn't bad for this though, it almost seems as though they voiced the dry samples to match whatever IR is selected.

However, when using IR's, I still sometimes get the feeling that I'm hearing the pipe's original reverb, and the IR at the same time, and it doesn't feel quite right. Maybe that's what you're talking about? I actually also get this problem with most multi channel sets if I play all the perspectives at the same time, they feel as though I shouldn't be hearing all these different reverbs at once, like there's something not quite right. Now the Pipeloops has 4 channels, but I haven't adjusted the settings, and it hasn't bothered me yet, maybe because it is a bit more dry. For a lot of multi channel sets though, I've given up on trying to adjust them, because they also don't sound quite right if I only play one perspective, or I try to adjust them, like they were voiced for all the ranks played equally together, and I'm missing something if I cut one out or drop the volume too much.

This is all in stereo, however. I'm sure if I had a multi channel setup it would be different, but I'm not there yet!
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adri

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Re: Maihingen organ by Prospectum (not a typo!)

PostTue Nov 15, 2022 4:48 am

DELETED
Last edited by adri on Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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vpo-organist

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Re: Maihingen organ by Prospectum (not a typo!)

PostTue Nov 15, 2022 1:28 pm

Deleted - as referenced post has been deleted and thus pointless.

Adri, I don't think it's okay if a sample set manufacturer provides you with a sample set free of charge for testing and then posts a negative test result publicly in a forum. That is an abuse of trust and damaging to the business. Especially when a tester may have used the wrong settings. If you had informed the manufacturer, he would have had the chance to address the problems or improve something without scaring off potential buyers.

Since I don't know how well deepl.com translates the text, here it is in German to be on the safe side:

Adri, ich finde es nicht in Ordnung, wenn man von einem Sampleset-Hersteller ein Sampleset kostenlos zum Testen zur Verfügung gestellt bekommt und dann ein negatives Testergebnis öffentlich in einem Forum postet. Das ist ein Vertrauensmissbrauch und geschäftsschädigend. Insbesondere, wenn ein Tester evtl. falsche Einstellungen verwendet hat. Hättest Du den Hersteller informiert, dann hat er die Chance, auf die Probleme einzugehen oder etwas zu verbessern, ohne das potentielle Käufer abgeschreckt werden.
Last edited by vpo-organist on Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mweyand

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Re: Maihingen organ by Prospectum (not a typo!)

PostTue Nov 15, 2022 6:43 pm

Deleted - as referenced post has been deleted and thus pointless
Last edited by mweyand on Wed Nov 16, 2022 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DomD

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Re: Maihingen organ by Prospectum (not a typo!)

PostWed Nov 16, 2022 4:16 am

Both samples are of very high quality but realised in a different way. I have the same enthusiasm playing both of them. I think that it's a great opportunity to have 2 ssets of the same organ because it may be usefull to help us understanding the improvements for HW that can be done. It 's also usefull for ssets producers that can change the way they'are recording organs. Gernot had courage to propose something different and to me convincing.
Last edited by DomD on Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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larason2

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Re: Maihingen organ by Prospectum (not a typo!)

PostWed Nov 16, 2022 10:23 am

It's very true that I would like Hauptwerk to "remember" on a per organ basis what IR's I have selected for that organ only. It's actually part of the reason I don't like to play with IR's that I'll load another organ, and decide it doesn't quite "sound right." Then, I'll fiddle around with the settings until I realize that I still have the IR from the last organ on top! Do any of you remember if that has been logged as a "feature request?" If not, I'll go to the relevant page and log it.

Perhaps Adri made a mistake, and that's why the post has been deleted. If so, I look forward to his updated impression once he posts again.

My feeling is that all of the current sample set producers produce good work. However, they all have a different philosophy of how they should put together the set. I've found I've been the happiest with sample sets where the producer's opinions of how a set should be put together mirrors my own. So, once I've bought a set or two, I can arrive at an opinion regarding this. I've actually not bought a set by Prospectum before, so it would be hard for me to comment on this regarding them. However, I can say that Pipeloops is one of those producers whom I've bought more than one set from, and I like how they approach things. For me, it's hard to decide on a lot of aspects of a set without actually playing it on my system. Recordings just don't do a good enough impression, in my opinion. In this case, it's hard to take that risk on Prospectum, when I already have the same organ from Pipeloops, and I love it! I suppose I could try to get a time limited demo, but that also requires a certain commitment of time to download, install, and thoroughly test it before the time runs out!
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mdyde

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Re: Maihingen organ by Prospectum (not a typo!)

PostWed Nov 16, 2022 10:36 am

larason2 wrote:It's very true that I would like Hauptwerk to "remember" on a per organ basis what IR's I have selected for that organ only. It's actually part of the reason I don't like to play with IR's that I'll load another organ, and decide it doesn't quite "sound right." Then, I'll fiddle around with the settings until I realize that I still have the IR from the last organ on top! Do any of you remember if that has been logged as a "feature request?" If not, I'll go to the relevant page and log it.


Hello larason2,

Thanks for the suggestion. Yes -- it's already logged in our enhancements database, and something we hope to add for some future version. (No need for anybody send additional requests for it.) In the current version, you can of course potentially configure different mixer presets (with whatever reverbs you like) for different organs, but I appreciate that may be a bit more fiddly (duplicating settings) if you also have multi-channel audio/speakers configured within them. The ability to import/export/copy mixer presets is also something we hope to include as a high priority.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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DomD

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Re: Maihingen organ by Prospectum (not a typo!)

PostWed Nov 16, 2022 1:26 pm

[quote="larason2"]It's very true that I would like Hauptwerk to "remember" on a per organ basis what IR's I have selected for that organ only. It's actually part of the reason I don't like to play with IR's that I'll load another organ, and decide it doesn't quite "sound right." Then, I'll fiddle around with the settings until I realize that I still have the IR from the last organ on top!

I agree ! Very good idea.
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adri

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Re: Maihingen organ by Prospectum (not a typo!)

PostWed Nov 16, 2022 5:47 pm

vpo-organist wrote:Adri, from what you say, I think you just forgot to set the Acoustic slider (Mixer-Preset) in Hauptwerk (not in the sampleset) from 100 to 0, so the sound has double Reverb from two different Churches. And yes, that sounds horrible :-) The contrebombarde examples don't sound like what you describe.

If this was an incorrect setting on your part, then I also hope for an honest statement and correction of your statement here.


My post has been deleted; it’s no longer public and I had several good reasons to delete it. These reasons lay outside the differences between the two sets.
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vpo-organist

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Re: Maihingen organ by Prospectum (not a typo!)

PostFri Nov 18, 2022 12:37 pm

I've changed my post from Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:28 pm
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