Thanks, Lew.
Very best wishes for a speedy recovery from the Christmas injury.
I've made a note in our enhancement request about the tool you mention for future reference.
Noticed increased accessibility on the Mac
Re: Noticed increased accessibility on the Mac
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Noticed increased accessibility on the Mac
I know this might sound a bit mad, but how's this for a thought / suggestion.
If direct accessibility to the stops would be a challenge, could we create a set of wizards to allow a user with sight loss to, when prompted, set up a physical console or midi environment to map controls to interface elements?
Say...
Stop jamb Wizard - allows user to map stops to both jambs based on spoken prompts or screen reader navigation of the wizard.
Pistons Wizard - as above, same concept.
Accessories Wizard - as above but for controls like expressions / crescendo pedal, toe studs
Sequencer Wizard - set up navigation buttons, set, gen cancel, etc.
Wizards like this could be implemented as part of the UI without the worry of navigational issues of panes for the visual elements of an organ library.
Another idea would be. I don't know if you remember Growl at all... it used to be a component of MacOS system notifications until we went native. but what if when a stop or piston is pressed, system speech synthesiss engine would announce the stop name and status, as an example "16' Open Wood On" or depending on how many divisions you have, could say instead "Great 16' Open Wood ON" and same status if turned off. features like this could be enabled / disabled within the preferences and add a tab in preferences to set up spoken objects without actually making the main panel based on changing GUI's fully accessible. If the necessary elements of creating wizards that save the state for each organ library as part of the loading file structure, then if you're just relying on a pure console or midi environment and don't want to interact with the host computer all the time, then making spoken stops / pistons / sequencer / accessories available would be the next best option and viable with less intensive elements. the only elements you don't need spoken are expression / crescendo state because that's a purely tactile and sound based observation. something like this could get blind users using hauptwerk before we find the final solution.
VOCR is more of a temporary solution, it can get you out of tight scrapes, but it's not fully reliable, but if you are getting to know voiceover and testing navigation, it's a tool to learn from if anything, it may work better this time around. I had tried it initially in an earlier build with an older version of hauptwerk and it worked to a degree but required so much work to be stable.
lew
If direct accessibility to the stops would be a challenge, could we create a set of wizards to allow a user with sight loss to, when prompted, set up a physical console or midi environment to map controls to interface elements?
Say...
Stop jamb Wizard - allows user to map stops to both jambs based on spoken prompts or screen reader navigation of the wizard.
Pistons Wizard - as above, same concept.
Accessories Wizard - as above but for controls like expressions / crescendo pedal, toe studs
Sequencer Wizard - set up navigation buttons, set, gen cancel, etc.
Wizards like this could be implemented as part of the UI without the worry of navigational issues of panes for the visual elements of an organ library.
Another idea would be. I don't know if you remember Growl at all... it used to be a component of MacOS system notifications until we went native. but what if when a stop or piston is pressed, system speech synthesiss engine would announce the stop name and status, as an example "16' Open Wood On" or depending on how many divisions you have, could say instead "Great 16' Open Wood ON" and same status if turned off. features like this could be enabled / disabled within the preferences and add a tab in preferences to set up spoken objects without actually making the main panel based on changing GUI's fully accessible. If the necessary elements of creating wizards that save the state for each organ library as part of the loading file structure, then if you're just relying on a pure console or midi environment and don't want to interact with the host computer all the time, then making spoken stops / pistons / sequencer / accessories available would be the next best option and viable with less intensive elements. the only elements you don't need spoken are expression / crescendo state because that's a purely tactile and sound based observation. something like this could get blind users using hauptwerk before we find the final solution.
VOCR is more of a temporary solution, it can get you out of tight scrapes, but it's not fully reliable, but if you are getting to know voiceover and testing navigation, it's a tool to learn from if anything, it may work better this time around. I had tried it initially in an earlier build with an older version of hauptwerk and it worked to a degree but required so much work to be stable.
lew
Blind church organist, composer, Accessibility developer / advisor and developer behind a speaking organ console for the blind.
Re: Noticed increased accessibility on the Mac
Hello Lew,
Thanks very much for the additional suggestions and thoughts, which I've added to the enhancement request log too, for future consideration.
Thanks very much for the additional suggestions and thoughts, which I've added to the enhancement request log too, for future consideration.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
-
- Member
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sat May 13, 2023 6:29 am
Re: Noticed increased accessibility on the Mac
Hi Martin,
Just flying you a bit of an update and wanted to ask how things are going with any updates, fixes or solutions?
So, my organ build took a bit of a pause because I am battling cancer, yep, a bugger. but things are sorting out.
I announced my retirement as a master uilleann piper and sold off my instruments which is now funding a new macbook pro custom for the organ build, so I need something with some punch.
So, have any updates to hauptwerk been released since V8? if so, do they contain any accessibility fixes for screen readers to access the organ libraries? if not. do you have any possible workarounds I could use on the mac?
Here's a question for you. I'm testing a coding support for touch screens with VoiceOver and it seems rather stable. One console design idea I have is going dual portrait touch panels to save on wiring looms, etc. Does Hauptwerk work well with dual displays and if so, how do you set up the dual displays so that left and right jambs are on appropriate displays?
Although Organteq is a nice organ software suite to use, it lacks a heck of a lot of what I need from it.
One final question and it is accessibility linked. My console design offers general and divisional pistons as well as sequencer functions to navigate. Does Hauptwerk support divisional and general pistons, or does it work a different way? I don't have the kind of experience of hauptwerk to determine this, but moving to hauptwerk is a rather daunting feeling for me because of my particular needs as a blind organist. from mapping out the libraries to midi assigned objects, etc onwards.
I hope you're doing well. keep up the amazing work.
Lew.
P.S: Someone described a particular organ library, I can't remember which one it was, but the way the main organ library view was designed resembled similar to Sweelinq where the stops are touch and screen reader navigatable, I'm told it's based on straight column / row views per division and is easy to work with. It would be interesting if you find a way to either make organ libraries present either a form of accessible window, or somehow create an environment that builds the library main interface in to an accessible format.
Just flying you a bit of an update and wanted to ask how things are going with any updates, fixes or solutions?
So, my organ build took a bit of a pause because I am battling cancer, yep, a bugger. but things are sorting out.
I announced my retirement as a master uilleann piper and sold off my instruments which is now funding a new macbook pro custom for the organ build, so I need something with some punch.
So, have any updates to hauptwerk been released since V8? if so, do they contain any accessibility fixes for screen readers to access the organ libraries? if not. do you have any possible workarounds I could use on the mac?
Here's a question for you. I'm testing a coding support for touch screens with VoiceOver and it seems rather stable. One console design idea I have is going dual portrait touch panels to save on wiring looms, etc. Does Hauptwerk work well with dual displays and if so, how do you set up the dual displays so that left and right jambs are on appropriate displays?
Although Organteq is a nice organ software suite to use, it lacks a heck of a lot of what I need from it.
One final question and it is accessibility linked. My console design offers general and divisional pistons as well as sequencer functions to navigate. Does Hauptwerk support divisional and general pistons, or does it work a different way? I don't have the kind of experience of hauptwerk to determine this, but moving to hauptwerk is a rather daunting feeling for me because of my particular needs as a blind organist. from mapping out the libraries to midi assigned objects, etc onwards.
I hope you're doing well. keep up the amazing work.
Lew.
P.S: Someone described a particular organ library, I can't remember which one it was, but the way the main organ library view was designed resembled similar to Sweelinq where the stops are touch and screen reader navigatable, I'm told it's based on straight column / row views per division and is easy to work with. It would be interesting if you find a way to either make organ libraries present either a form of accessible window, or somehow create an environment that builds the library main interface in to an accessible format.
Blind church organist, composer, Accessibility developer / advisor and developer behind a speaking organ console for the blind.
Re: Noticed increased accessibility on the Mac
Thanks, Lew.
Congratulations on the retirement.
Hauptwerk does support general and divisional pistons, and the Advanced Edition does support multiple touch screens (but you would need to be able to see what was on their graphical virtual consoles).
There have been no additional accessibility changes in Hauptwerk since v8.0, and I can't promise when or whether we might be able to work on the things you're hoping for, but if we do it would probably be in the longer-term future, I'm afraid.
Hence for now my advice would still be to use Organteq, given that it already has the level of VoiceOver integration you want, even if it may not have every feature that you'd like ideally.
Very sorry I don't have time to be involved with this for now, but best wishes with your your new system and console.
Congratulations on the retirement.
Hauptwerk does support general and divisional pistons, and the Advanced Edition does support multiple touch screens (but you would need to be able to see what was on their graphical virtual consoles).
There have been no additional accessibility changes in Hauptwerk since v8.0, and I can't promise when or whether we might be able to work on the things you're hoping for, but if we do it would probably be in the longer-term future, I'm afraid.
Hence for now my advice would still be to use Organteq, given that it already has the level of VoiceOver integration you want, even if it may not have every feature that you'd like ideally.
Very sorry I don't have time to be involved with this for now, but best wishes with your your new system and console.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
-
- Member
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sat May 13, 2023 6:29 am
Re: Noticed increased accessibility on the Mac
Hi Martin,
Thanks for your response. Sadly the retirement was forced, not an option. I am battling cancer.
Forgive me asking this question and I realise it might upset you so I’ll be careful here…
Why did you make hauptwerk as a main user interface compatible with VoiceOver, but stop there? I ask this because having been a developer in accessibility, a music industry advocate for assistive technologies for Music Technologies, etc, I’ve worked with a number of developers to assess, test, diagnose, report and develop solutions to make the lives of blind musicians easier and more equal. Over the god knows how many years, it’s been so tiring, difficult, even to the point of harming my health.
The reason Organteq became accessible was in part due to me being in regular contact, discussing solutions and my initial work on V1 which showed potential but needed extensive work. Like you, Modartt is an extremely small company with gifted developers, like you. You show such skill and talent, this is effectively your baby. Many people I know have spoken so well and avidly of you.
How can I viably persuade you that making these accessibility functions available would be of critical benefit to your company? I’ll give this a try, partly because I believe that Hauptwerk can achieve so much with assistive technologies integration, that the market will react much stronger because it’s focus is on inclusion, partly because you’ve gone so far already and I can’t say enough, please don’t give up on it. I know you’re only 1 person and inwardly thinking that if cloning helped, you’d knock projects off in half the time , but also that from a business perspective, your market share would increase significantly when you demonstrate that Hauptwerk changes the lives of blind organists in a way that no other system can.
I’ve been fully blind for nearly 25 years, it wasn’t natural, let’s just say I was the victim of a rather horrific attack just because I didn’t fit in in school, my life changed forever. All I see around me is nothing but black, so I rely heavily on assistive tech, from a speaking mac and iPhone, to an Orcam MyEye Pro and Read (worked for the company until I was recently made redundant) I use a long cane with a roller tip to travel. I am a gifted and qualified organist and composer. The reason I took on the fight for music accessibility was because between school, college and university life, I faced major educational battles trying to have an equal education. The hardest battles were to do not only with reading and studying music as a braillist, but also using course specific software, etc. I was effectively excluded from some parts of the course and had to take legal steps to fight against failing a course. I finally earned my Masters in Music degree, blending classical music as an organist and pianist, with educational law and assistive technology development. I owned my own studio I developed based on legacy and modern hardware. As an organist, I owned a 3 manual custom from Viscount as my graduation gift to myself. Sadly when dad passed, that organ was sold at the end of 2017 with the studio.
Building this new organ has been 4 years in the making, from research and development of certain software, trying to fix or re-engineer certain software that failed, then being taken on by Modartt to help them with development for VoiceOver, knowing that the solution I need is still a way away. That’s where I am, console nearly built but hospital matters and strength kind of draining at times, where I need to be and where I am now are a distance away.
Please don’t be offended by what I’ll say here now. If you were in the position where you couldn’t see, you were fully blind, you needed to use the particular software of a developer, you discussed your needs, to be told that either they didn’t have time to do things like that, yet were working on other things to do for other needs, or that there wasn’t any interest to make these developments or changes, how would you feel? The worst question is this… What would you do or how would you feel if you lost your sight today - knowing the work you do, etc?
Hauptwerk is a product so many are fortunate and lucky to use, but for blind users like me, it’s not an option. But when it was announced that accessibility changes were added, excitement was shown, but after that, trying to use any libraries just isn’t viable. Surely, as a developer, you’d want to find ways around this and in doing so, give users the ability to not only use the libraries, but also give your brand the support it should get, deserves, etc. Now think of this in two solutions…
1: custom console builds like mine where a computer sits away from the console, but an audio interface dedicated to the screen reader output i dedicated, not through hauptwerk, but by the OS itself, to an ear piece, then the midi console driving hauptwerk’s stops, couplers, pistons, etc and having those elements spoken out.
2: manufacturer’s dedicated built hauptwerk organs like Content, etc, tweaking their OS to include the screen reader support depending on the OS, pressing tab stops, etc to provide spoken output that doesn’t affect the playing / performance experience.
This is doable, I can assure you of that. This would from a business model place you at the highest point of product innovation and support, you’d have advocates and specialists like me supporting you, training customers, helping set systems up, etc.
In conclusion, Milan Digital Audio needs to prioritise completion of an accessible module to solve the issue of accessing, navigating and using organ libraries for blind users, otherwise the work already done to make the main UI usable has been wasted, because nothing else can be achieved. It’d be like building a car, nearly finished then going “sod it” leaving the paint work off and just the filler and a bit of primer, no poor fella would buy it unless accompanied by a 4 legged fart
You’re a highly skilled and knowledgeable developer, why waste development and testing of accessibility and leave the stable door shut half way through? To me it makes no sense.
What can I do to convince you and your company that this needs priority? Otherwise the work you’ve done is a waste of time, resources and breaks the hopes of those who really need this the most? Besides the fact that if you could make this possible, you’d rapidly increase product sales because you’re then in the realms of inclusive technologies where colleges, schools, institutions and sight impaired organists can indeed invest in your software WIT CONFIDENCE!
Lew
Thanks for your response. Sadly the retirement was forced, not an option. I am battling cancer.
Forgive me asking this question and I realise it might upset you so I’ll be careful here…
Why did you make hauptwerk as a main user interface compatible with VoiceOver, but stop there? I ask this because having been a developer in accessibility, a music industry advocate for assistive technologies for Music Technologies, etc, I’ve worked with a number of developers to assess, test, diagnose, report and develop solutions to make the lives of blind musicians easier and more equal. Over the god knows how many years, it’s been so tiring, difficult, even to the point of harming my health.
The reason Organteq became accessible was in part due to me being in regular contact, discussing solutions and my initial work on V1 which showed potential but needed extensive work. Like you, Modartt is an extremely small company with gifted developers, like you. You show such skill and talent, this is effectively your baby. Many people I know have spoken so well and avidly of you.
How can I viably persuade you that making these accessibility functions available would be of critical benefit to your company? I’ll give this a try, partly because I believe that Hauptwerk can achieve so much with assistive technologies integration, that the market will react much stronger because it’s focus is on inclusion, partly because you’ve gone so far already and I can’t say enough, please don’t give up on it. I know you’re only 1 person and inwardly thinking that if cloning helped, you’d knock projects off in half the time , but also that from a business perspective, your market share would increase significantly when you demonstrate that Hauptwerk changes the lives of blind organists in a way that no other system can.
I’ve been fully blind for nearly 25 years, it wasn’t natural, let’s just say I was the victim of a rather horrific attack just because I didn’t fit in in school, my life changed forever. All I see around me is nothing but black, so I rely heavily on assistive tech, from a speaking mac and iPhone, to an Orcam MyEye Pro and Read (worked for the company until I was recently made redundant) I use a long cane with a roller tip to travel. I am a gifted and qualified organist and composer. The reason I took on the fight for music accessibility was because between school, college and university life, I faced major educational battles trying to have an equal education. The hardest battles were to do not only with reading and studying music as a braillist, but also using course specific software, etc. I was effectively excluded from some parts of the course and had to take legal steps to fight against failing a course. I finally earned my Masters in Music degree, blending classical music as an organist and pianist, with educational law and assistive technology development. I owned my own studio I developed based on legacy and modern hardware. As an organist, I owned a 3 manual custom from Viscount as my graduation gift to myself. Sadly when dad passed, that organ was sold at the end of 2017 with the studio.
Building this new organ has been 4 years in the making, from research and development of certain software, trying to fix or re-engineer certain software that failed, then being taken on by Modartt to help them with development for VoiceOver, knowing that the solution I need is still a way away. That’s where I am, console nearly built but hospital matters and strength kind of draining at times, where I need to be and where I am now are a distance away.
Please don’t be offended by what I’ll say here now. If you were in the position where you couldn’t see, you were fully blind, you needed to use the particular software of a developer, you discussed your needs, to be told that either they didn’t have time to do things like that, yet were working on other things to do for other needs, or that there wasn’t any interest to make these developments or changes, how would you feel? The worst question is this… What would you do or how would you feel if you lost your sight today - knowing the work you do, etc?
Hauptwerk is a product so many are fortunate and lucky to use, but for blind users like me, it’s not an option. But when it was announced that accessibility changes were added, excitement was shown, but after that, trying to use any libraries just isn’t viable. Surely, as a developer, you’d want to find ways around this and in doing so, give users the ability to not only use the libraries, but also give your brand the support it should get, deserves, etc. Now think of this in two solutions…
1: custom console builds like mine where a computer sits away from the console, but an audio interface dedicated to the screen reader output i dedicated, not through hauptwerk, but by the OS itself, to an ear piece, then the midi console driving hauptwerk’s stops, couplers, pistons, etc and having those elements spoken out.
2: manufacturer’s dedicated built hauptwerk organs like Content, etc, tweaking their OS to include the screen reader support depending on the OS, pressing tab stops, etc to provide spoken output that doesn’t affect the playing / performance experience.
This is doable, I can assure you of that. This would from a business model place you at the highest point of product innovation and support, you’d have advocates and specialists like me supporting you, training customers, helping set systems up, etc.
In conclusion, Milan Digital Audio needs to prioritise completion of an accessible module to solve the issue of accessing, navigating and using organ libraries for blind users, otherwise the work already done to make the main UI usable has been wasted, because nothing else can be achieved. It’d be like building a car, nearly finished then going “sod it” leaving the paint work off and just the filler and a bit of primer, no poor fella would buy it unless accompanied by a 4 legged fart
You’re a highly skilled and knowledgeable developer, why waste development and testing of accessibility and leave the stable door shut half way through? To me it makes no sense.
What can I do to convince you and your company that this needs priority? Otherwise the work you’ve done is a waste of time, resources and breaks the hopes of those who really need this the most? Besides the fact that if you could make this possible, you’d rapidly increase product sales because you’re then in the realms of inclusive technologies where colleges, schools, institutions and sight impaired organists can indeed invest in your software WIT CONFIDENCE!
Lew
Blind church organist, composer, Accessibility developer / advisor and developer behind a speaking organ console for the blind.
Re: Noticed increased accessibility on the Mac
Hello Lew,
Thanks again for the thoughts and suggestions.
As I mentioned, this isn't something that I can be involved in right now -- very sorry -- and I can't promise when it might happen, but Milan Digital Audio is very much aware that developing Hauptwerk further for people with impaired sight would be highly desirable and valued.
My very best wishes for your battle with cancer.
Thanks again for the thoughts and suggestions.
As I mentioned, this isn't something that I can be involved in right now -- very sorry -- and I can't promise when it might happen, but Milan Digital Audio is very much aware that developing Hauptwerk further for people with impaired sight would be highly desirable and valued.
My very best wishes for your battle with cancer.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.