Fatar Key Feel

[Glenn English]

I'm afraid this reprises a subject which has been discussed at some length but perhaps you'll humour me....

I'm planning a new console build for our church and of course the default option for sensibly priced keyboards would be the Fatar TP/60 series. Unfortunately however, I've never played one of these (to the best of my knowledge) so I'm nervous about just ordering them up.

My home organ, a converted Conn 652, has a very light touch (which I like) and a church that I played in for many years had an Allen MDS 26 ( which had an action somewhat heavier than my Conn, but still very pleasant ). The church I play in now though has a Johannus Opus 5, whose feel and action I can only describe as truly awful - a clicky - clattery cacophony with a most un-muscial faux tracker feel. Of course my fear is that these are Fatar keyboards in the Johannus and that a stack of three or four new examples would be the realisation of my worst organ nightmare.
Can anybody speculate as to the provenance of the Johannus keys ? I presume that Johannus model further up the range would have better quality keys, but this little Opus 5 really is right at the poverty end of the range. Your comments please, also on Allen vs Fatar feel ?

[larason2]

Yep, they are 100% Fatar. In Fatar's defence though, they have several models, and the higher end ones feel slightly better (not as flimsy, but just as clicky). Personally I've never liked any of them, but there's plenty of people that like that "tracker simulation" they have. It's fine until the bubbles wear out. However, replacing them is simple but time consuming.

Your preference is a bit rare. Usually people like the clicky Fatar tracker touch feel, or the feeling of the full weight of a wooden core key like the Allen (Or the light as a feather feeling of hammond waterfall keys, but that's another thing all together).

You might like the base model Schwindlers sold by Pedamidikit. They're wood core, but short throw, so more responsive than the long wooden fulcrum of traditional organ manuals, but not flimsy and thin feeling like the cheapest fatar. You can get them with magnets to simulate "tracker touch," but I also personally don't like that. I have some on order, I can post here a review when they arrive.

[magnaton]

I did a quick internet scan and see that the Johannus Opus 5 is a very 'low-tier' organ. I have worked on this instrument that was re-badged with a "Bristol" name plate. The console was identical but had more rocker tabs. Indeed the keyboards were Fatar but not the TP/60 model and they felt more flimsy. The TP/60s have a nice, light tracker touch to them. Fatar used to make a slightly different version that had tapered sharps with no tracker feel (think newer Allen theatre organ models). This model may be the one your would prefer but unfortunately they quit making them a few years ago. The TP/60s have a tight, quality feel to them at nice price point which is why they are so popular with the HW community and MIDI console builders.

Danny B.

[Glenn English]

As I feared then. Although I'm quite sure the little Johannus has the cheapest possible keys (I've just discovered that Fatar do offer a downmarket model with tracker touch ) particularly as the rest of the console seems to be constructed largely from hardboard / cardboard

So yes, the TP/60 will probably feel slightly better, but I really dislike the clicky feel in principle. There seems to be something of a fetish for tracker touch, with the implication being that any real organ would feel that way, but I had the privilege of being able to play the nice 3m Harrison & Harrison in Down cathedral quite regularly for a couple of years and I can assure you it didn't feel clicky ( electro - pneumatic I believe).

I'm not familiar with 'Pedamidikit', but after a quick look at their website I'm quite intrigued - their keys sound as if they might be just what I'm looking for, and not a huge amount more expensive than the equivalent Fatars either.

What is the quoted lead-time for your keyboards ?

And please review as soon as you get them !

[Glenn English]

@ Danny -

You're not wrong about the 'Low-Tier' nature of the Johannus

One of my main gripes is the absolute clatter the keys make as they return to 'note off' position. Do the TP/60s do that ?

[larason2]

PMK keyboards are made to order in Italy, then shipped to the customer. I understand he gets the key cores/keyboard frame, but then he needs to put the key covers on them, cheeks, etc. They come with basic contacts, but he attaches an arduino style midi controller to them before shipping them off. I only recently ordered them, but I'm not in a hurry, so I didn't ask lead time. I understand though that it's usually a few weeks at least, depends on how busy he is. Alessandro apprenticed with an organ builder, and he has made whole custom consoles, and portative organs, but now he mostly just does these midi kits. I think someone bought keyboards and a pedalboard from him in the past and posted it here. There's the odd raw edge or key/pedal alignment issue that's usually easy to resolve, but otherwise very good value for the money. That's why I ordered from him. He's very responsive to talk to via email. You can always send him an email to ask lead time, that's what it says on his website.

[gecko]

review:

https://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.p ... 77#p149577

[magnaton]

@ Danny -

You're not wrong about the 'Low-Tier' nature of the Johannus

One of my main gripes is the absolute clatter the keys make as they return to 'note off' position. Do the TP/60s do that ?

The key return bumpers are rubber so you hear a very slight thump. It would be as if you barely type the eraser end of a pencil on a table. When you are playing with ranks engage you basically hear nothing.

[Glenn English]

Sorry to resurrect this thread after an intermission - but based on what I've read, both here and elsewhere, I think that the Fatar TP/60 series will be 'good enough' for my purposes and, on account of their relative ubiquity, more likely to be replaceable / repairable by someone else in the future, should that be necessary.
I now need to go through a design and approval process with the diocesan authorities before commencing work on the new console, but in order to prepare drawings I need to know the nominal dimensions of the Fatar keybeds, in particular the overall depth, front to back (including hidden mechanism) of a TP/60. Can anyone help ? (within a few mm will suffice at this stage of the process).

[larason2]

That's fair! Ask your planned supplier, they should have all that data. Still, it's better to start working once you have them in hand for test fitting, and in case one is slightly different than the others (it has been known to happen).

[Glenn English]

Oh I wouldn't begin construction without the keyboards actually in front of me, but at this stage I'm just trying to get a handle on the overall depth of the keybeds in order to work out the minimum possible depth of a 4-manual console ( a design for approval, but not yet a design for manufacture, if you like )

[pwhodges]

You could try asking Midi Boutique for the dimensions of these fittings for Fatar TP60 keyboards which they sell...

https://www.midiboutique.com/TP60uc

Paul

[ReinerS]

I used the TP60 keyboards in my DIY-console project which I built a couple years ago. I really like the feel of them (I'm only an amateur, though), but they do have a significant drawback: The plastic support structure is a bit too weak, and so the keyboards bend in the middle when you press the keys a bit harder. So you will need to make some sort of support structure underneath. Also they snap back quite hard, so I really recommend a felt strip between the keys and the piston rails above them.

[Alexander_K]

Total depth (from key front to back of the keyboard frame) is 250.7 mm for TP/60L and 251.4 mm for TP/60LF.
Total width of the white keys is 838.4 mm.

[Glenn English]

Thank you Alexander - this is exactly what I need.