Missing the dropdown menus

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mnailor
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Missing the dropdown menus

Post by mnailor »

I guess this is going to be a bit unpopular...

I really miss the well-organized dropdown menus (File View Organ Registration...) of HW8 and below. I could find a simple list of the settings or actions I needed, categorized in an obvious way, without trying to decipher a visually cluttered touch menu page of differently sized buttons and links where I have to search both horizontally and vertically. I'm still struggling to find things quickly in the touch menu, though I get there eventually.

I know the topics are organized almost the same as the previous dropdown menus, but it is harder for me to spot the entries on the page when they aren't in a simple list format. Based on questions in the fb group, I'm not the only one, and I find explaining where a setting is more difficult now -- I didn't use to have to start up HW to answer most questions about where to find something.

I still use my trackpad on the console to do my settings, only using the touchscreen to select stops to set up registrations on pistons and sometimes to hand register. (My left hand shakes so it's hard to use the touchscreen without turning fully so my right hand can reach the screen, and the monitor only fits on the left side of the console. So not using the trackpad isn't workable.)

I agree that having a better input method for doing settings and actions on a touchscreen was needed, and the touch menu is good for that. Though it's kind of incomplete because many settings still drill down to a list box that isn't finger-friendly and needs a mouse to navigate. And I haven't missed the large floating control panels at all.

Could there be both the current touch menu and the option to show a menu bar of the old dropdown list menus for ancient mouse/trackpad/trackball users?
larason2
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Re: Missing the dropdown menus

Post by larason2 »

Haha! I totally agree. I've set up so many organs for floating divisions, but it took me thirty minutes to figure out how to do it with the new interface. I finally got it, but it's like ten years of experience using the menus is now lost! I thought the top bar menus would remain, but they're gone. So I have to mourn. It was really handy to have them sometimes! I also exclusively do setup with a trackpad, I don't like touch screens. Oh well, I guess it's the future! My daughter is mistified if she can't touch the screen to manipulate the computer. "What's wrong with the screen?" It really makes me feel like a dinosaur!
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mdyde
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Re: Missing the dropdown menus

Post by mdyde »

Hello Mark,

We removed the previous main menu system (menu bar and its submenus) because:

- There was a great deal of duplication in v8 (and earlier) between:
a) The menu system.
b) The touch menu.
c) The large control panels.
d) The mini control panels.
e) The piston toolbars.
Our experience has been that a lot of users (especially new users) found that duplication confusing and intimidating, making it hard to find things, particularly since some of the above interfaces show slightly different things to others. E.g. sliders, real-time meters, and output values could be accessed via the touch menu and control panels, but not on the the menu bar or piston toolbars, due to the limitations of those formats. We wanted to remove ambiguity and duplication, so that everything could be found in one place, and so that everybody would know where to look to find it, with nothing else getting in the way or adding confusion.

- Also, the menu system was getting bigger and bigger with every release's new functionality, to the point that it was felt that it had become unwieldy, and again some users (especially new users) found it intimidating and difficult to find things.

- Similarly, all of that duplication made the documentation large and unwieldy, again making it harder for new users to find things.

- Most Hauptwerk users use touch-screens, so prefer its interface primarily to be optimised for that mode of use. (I appreciate that not all other parts of Hauptwerk are yet optimal for that, such as settings screens, which is something that we aim to continue working towards in the longer term.)

- Finally having to maintaining those different user interfaces in parallel as new features were implemented added to development and documentation work, slowing the development of new functionality.

A great deal of effort has gone into trying to ensure that v9's touch menu is a valid replacement for the menu system and large control panels, and at least as convenient to use. Like you, I don't use a touch-screen, and usually prefer user interfaces to be of a more traditional nature (I mainly use the computer keyboard and keyboard shortcuts for navigation applications, only reaching for the mouse as a last resort). However, I know I'm in the minority amongst Hauptwerk users.

I do genuinely feel that we've managed to get the touch menu to the point that it's at least as convenient to use as the former menu system and large control panels (even for us traditionally-inclined types) once one gets used to it, and I no longer miss the menu bar. In particular, the touch menu has extensive keyboard shortcuts to allow rapid operation by computer keyboard users (such as F1-F12 to pop it up and navigate to its tabs, or close it, with a single keypress).

Getting used to using the touch menu instead of the menu bar does of course take some time, given that it's different. I use it hundreds of times a day, so I've had more time to do that than most people, but I do think people will come to prefer it after a while.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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JulianMoney-Kyrle
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Re: Missing the dropdown menus

Post by JulianMoney-Kyrle »

I haven't used HW 9, but after getting every previous update from 3 onwards I can't see that there are any new features that I would actually want to use.

Windows is designed to be navigated many different ways, and as a touch typist I tend to use keyboard shortcuts a lot. I have really appreciated the ability to navigate entirely using the keyboard on occasions where the mouse was not working for whatever reason. Generally with computers there are lots of ways of achieving the same thing, which suit different people according to how they think and which devices are already familiar to them.

I use a touch screen for Hauptwerk, but it is a mixed blessing as it is above the music desk and prone to interference from the tiny grass flies that come into the house to hibernate, wake up on a warm day, are attracted to light, are almost invisible on a monitor screen and yet able to change the response to a finger. For functions that I use a lot I have a Launchpad. It seems to me that the obvious thing is to leave the existing menus there for people that already know how to use them.

What about accessibility? While I appreciate that the organ is probably not the first choice of instrument for people living with a disability (the spiral stone staircase leading to the organ loft where I have my lessons is positively treacherous, and when I had difficulty walking due to cancer in my spine it was really quite difficult to navigate), though my uncle took up the organ as a boy after he recovered from Polio (and was taught by Henry Ley), because he was advised that it would strengthen his lower limbs. There are certainly a few blind and partially-sighted organists, and I would be interested to know how they get on with Hauptwerk. There are hidden disabilities of course - I can see the attraction of the organ to those many of us on the Asperger-Autism spectrum. What about voice-recognition? "Hey Sebastian! Set up suitable registration for a trio sonata! Then set the pistons for a Howells crescendo!" I already have something similar in my car.
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mdyde
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Re: Missing the dropdown menus

Post by mdyde »

Hello Julian,

There are dedicated keyboard shortcuts for most (if not all) of the commonly-used functions on the touch menu, including a function (with its own keyboard shortcut) to list all of the keyboard shortcuts.

The touch menu is readable by Windows' screen-reader (navigable from the keyboard), although there are some compatibility issues with macOS' screen reader, and some parts of Hauptwerk can't yet be read by screen-readers (most notably graphical organ consoles). Developing functionality to make Hauptwerk more conveniently usable by sight-impaired users is logged in our database for the longer-term.

I don't myself use a touch-screen, instead navigating applications primarily using the computer keyboard, and I find v9 to be at least as usable in that respect as previous versions (a lot of effort went into ensuring that).
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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vpo-organist
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Re: Missing the dropdown menus

Post by vpo-organist »

I find the changes very beneficial. No more nested menus - you don't need them on the organ.
Quick and easy handling is important.

All the important parts of the touch menu can be reached quickly and easily using the touch menu tabs in the main window.

It is now more comfortable to use with the mouse too.

@Martin: In my opinion, this is progress and I look forward to further improvements to touch operation.

The tabs row within the touch menu should be hidden if the touch menu tabs are visible in the main window. Otherwise they just take up unnecessary space.

For people with disabilities, a sitemap could be offered where all functions are offered on one page.

Best regards
Wolfgang
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mdyde
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Re: Missing the dropdown menus

Post by mdyde »

Thanks, Wolfgang. Excellent.
vpo-organist wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2025 12:00 pm The tabs row within the touch menu should be hidden if the touch menu tabs are visible in the main window. Otherwise they just take up unnecessary space.
Yes -- (as discussed in a previous thread), we do have that logged as an enhancement request.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
ricou26
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Re: Missing the dropdown menus

Post by ricou26 »

Bonjour à tous :wink:
désolé de m exprimer en Français
mais je pense que vous pourrez traduire

je viens tout juste d'acheter un écran PC de 27 pouces en 144 hz de bonne qualité
je n'ai pas trop envie de faire encore des frais pour un écran de même taille en tactile
si dans un avenir plus ou moins lointain Hauptwerk devient 100% tactile ça sera sans moi :cry:
pour de future mises à jour
Cordialement Eric :(
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mdyde
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Re: Missing the dropdown menus

Post by mdyde »

Hello Eric,

An automatic translation of your post:
ricou26 wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 8:41 amHello everyone:wink: sorry to express myself in French but I think you will be able to translate I just bought a 27 inch 144 Hz monitor of good quality I don't really want to spend more money on a screen of the same size in touch if in the more or less distant future Hauptwerk becomes 100% tactile it will be without me :cry: for future updates Regards Eric
Don't worry -- we have no intention at all to make future Hauptwerk versions any less usable for non touch-screen users, or to remove any of v9's user interaction methods (virtual console, touch menu, mini control panels, piston toolbars, settings screens, MIDI, keyboard shortcuts, mouse, etc.). Although touch screens are the most popular means of interacting with Hauptwerk amongst Hauptwerk users, a large proportion of Hauptwerk users (including me) don't use touch-screens, and use MIDI and/or a computer keyboard and mouse instead, and we support them equally.

Automatic translation:
mdyde wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2025 5:26 amNe vous inquiétez pas, nous n'avons pas du tout l'intention de rendre les futures versions de Hauptwerk moins utilisables pour les utilisateurs non tactiles, ou de supprimer les méthodes d'interaction utilisateur de la v9 (console virtuelle, menu tactile, mini-panneaux de contrôle, barres d'outils à pistons, écrans de réglages, MIDI, raccourcis clavier, souris, etc.). Bien que les écrans tactiles soient le moyen le plus populaire d'interagir avec Hauptwerk parmi les utilisateurs de Hauptwerk, une grande proportion d'utilisateurs de Hauptwerk (y compris moi-même) n'utilisent pas d'écrans tactiles, et utilisent le MIDI et/ou un clavier et une souris d'ordinateur à la place, et nous les soutenons de manière égale.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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dw154515
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Re: Missing the dropdown menus

Post by dw154515 »

I, too, found the removal of the drop down, nested menus a little annoying at first but I get the reasoning behind it. A more stream-lined interface is something we have all felt was necessary for quite a long time, so I commend the effort.

My only grievance, and maybe it is only me and my setup, but I can't "right click" (press and hold on a touch display) anything on the touch menu. I HAVE to use a mouse in order to right click (which is the easiest way to access the "auto detect" and other functions) which seems to defeat the purpose of the *touch* menu.

Is this just me, or do others have the same issue? I am on Windows, for what it's worth.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Design Engineer - American Sound and Electronics - Indy
https://americansound.cc/
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mdyde
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Re: Missing the dropdown menus

Post by mdyde »

Thanks, Drew.
dw154515 wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 2:53 pm My only grievance, and maybe it is only me and my setup, but I can't "right click" (press and hold on a touch display) anything on the touch menu. I HAVE to use a mouse in order to right click (which is the easiest way to access the "auto detect" and other functions) which seems to defeat the purpose of the *touch* menu.

Is this just me, or do others have the same issue? I am on Windows, for what it's worth.
Hold-click with a mouse definitely works for me, in that it intentionally performs the same function as right-clicking with a mouse. I know of no reason why hold-click from a touch-screen should behave any differently, since the touch-screen driver would normally emulate mouse clicks (and hold-clicks).

Is hold-click working for you from a mouse? Is it definitely not working from your touch-screen? If not, is there perhaps some setting in your touch-screen's driver that can be changed to resolve it?

Do any other touch-screen users find that hold-clicking on a button on the touch menu from a touch-screen isn't doing the same thing as right-clicking on it with a mouse?
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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IainStinson
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Re: Missing the dropdown menus

Post by IainStinson »

Touch screen - long touch.
On Windows 11, outside Hauptwerk if you touch and hold an item for a "long" time, when you release the item the mouse right click dropdown menu appears. You can then select some action for the right click menu by touching it. Note that nothing happens until you stop holding the item.

In Hauptwerk 9, in the Touch Menu, with an organ loaded, if you touch and hold for a "long time" an item such as Registration | Combinations , chose a combination from the dropdown list of combinations to load and hold it for a "long" time, then the right click box appears. However it disappears as soon as you release the chosen combinations (not giving you time to select from the dropdown menu). You can select from the dropdown menu if you slide you finger across to the menu item you want - but this is rather hard to do and dependent on where the right click menu appears. It is not really usable. This is not the same as the native windows 11 behavior. I checked this for a few other items, they show the same behavior.

In Hauptwerk OUTSIDE the touch menu (for example in a control panel such as "view: show/hide touch menu") holding a button for a "long" time brings up the right click menu when you release the hold: you can then use the right click menu. It does not disappear immediately - in other words it behaves the same way as the operating system "long hold" (and is useable).

(I'm not using any special drivers for the two touch monitors.)
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mdyde
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Re: Missing the dropdown menus

Post by mdyde »

Thanks, Iain.

I'll have a look to see if there are settings that I could change that might affect how press-and-hold behaves on the touch menu, and get back to you by email, perhaps with a test build to try, if you wouldn't mind, and since you're a beta tester. I'll post an update in this thread for the benefit of others when we have any results.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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dw154515
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Re: Missing the dropdown menus

Post by dw154515 »

Thanks, Martin.

And thanks, Ian, for clearly articulating and taking the time to thoroughly expound on my brevity in my previous thread. You are exactly right in your explanation.

This is quite an annoyance because it means I have to have a mouse AND the touch screen in order to do any configuration that would ordinarily require a "right click." I can appreciate the move to updating the GUI to a more "streamlined" appearance such as the new touch menu provides, assuming this quirk can be resolved in some way. Aside from this, I was a little bothered by it at first but have come to find it perfectly straightforward and logical.

Thanks for all you folks do!
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Design Engineer - American Sound and Electronics - Indy
https://americansound.cc/
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mdyde
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Re: Missing the dropdown menus

Post by mdyde »

Thanks, Drew.

I've been looking into the issue with menus from hold-touch, and unfortunately it appears to be a behaviour/bug in the version of the multi-platform library that we use for Hauptwerk. It works as desired on macOS, and and is usable on Windows but awkward (you have to slide your finger over the menu item without releasing pressure on the screen). I can't work work around it, but it I think it's quite likely that moving to the next major version of the multi-platform library could resolve it. We can't do that for a Hauptwerk patch release (it would be a major change that's likely to affect minimum prerequisites, and also affect other parts of Hauptwerk), but when we move to it for a subsequent major Hauptwerk release if it doesn't improve the Windows hold-touch behaviour then I'll raise the issue with the multi-platform library's makers so that hopefully we can get a fix from them in time to incorporate into the finished version of that major Hauptwerk release. (If they were to change it, it would be in their latest major release anyway.)

Hence, although it isn't ideal, it's something that will have to be lived with for now, and I've declared it as a 'known issue' in the release notice for the forthcoming Hauptwerk v9.0.1 version.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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